Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
The Regular Stuff: Chat, Buy, Sell, Off Topic, etc. => General Discussion - Model & Toy Steam Engines – Stirling Cycle – Flame Lickers – Small Antique Originals => Topic started by: Nick on July 03, 2019, 11:43:09 am
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A very neat acquisition Nick, well worth the drive i'm sure!
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An excellent and interesting find Nick. Well worth the marathon road trip!
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I am just catching up after my Alaska adventure.
Congratulations Nick!
This is an incredible find.
And if you had continued to drive South a few more hours you would have arrived at my house. 🤠
Looking forward to seeing a video soon.
Cheers,
Charlie
I had thought of that Charlie, but it was a last minute un-planned trip, leaving at noon and had to be home for my wife's doctor appointment for the baby at 10 am the following morning :D
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I'm late to this party.....Nick...what a find!
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Definitely worth the drive Nick, love to have one of those awesome find. Any idea what years they were produced?
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I am just catching up after my Alaska adventure.
Congratulations Nick!
This is an incredible find.
And if you had continued to drive South a few more hours you would have arrived at my house. 🤠
Looking forward to seeing a video soon.
Cheers,
Charlie
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While I was pretty certain that no flame fired Jensen #50's ever left the "factory" in that configuration, I'm also pretty certain that few if any ever got converted to flame firing by their owners along the way. But this engine proves me wrong on that second count, yet I think it likely that very few, if any others, underwent this "treatment". Boilers perhaps, for other engines and applications, but whole plants including engines and generators, somehow seems unlikely what with the availability of replacement heating elements. Personally, I suspect that this was built this way out of parts, and not from an original and complete #50, so it is still possible that this came out of the Jensen "factory's" back door, so to speak, but that of course is just conjecture.
Now if you are really interested in keeping this unique unit in its current operational configuration, which I'd be tempted to do myself, you might do well to consider converting to a SPS propane burner, instead of that Stuart 504 style meths burner, as I think you'll get a lot more heat that way, which could well be advantageous with that big tank. On the other-hand, if you do wish to return it to a more stock configuration, I would also recommend that you contact SPS, as recent threads have shown him to be a master of Jensen firebox construction, so perhaps if you ask really nicely, and offer up the right incentives .... but please excuse my presumption that such a task might even be considered, though I suspect instructions on the process would be freely forthcoming!
Whatever you decide to do, that is still one amazing find ... generator and all !!!
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Fantastic addition Nick, congrats !!!
When will you release a pic of the whole board, i´m quite curious
The standard #15 AC "alternator" we all know runs with a simple solid slipring for the brush (second "brush" on some cast iron versions is the bearingpost itself, and the shaft acting as the second solid slipring), allowing the current to switch direction according to the magnetism induced, whereas a DC generator needs a split ring commutator, to keep a fixed positive and negative.
(Attachment Link)
If you look at the picture of Jack Boyle´s generator shared above by Nick, you can see that it has two "rings" for the brushes, one in each end of the shaft, making it possible to draw both AC and DC from the same permanent magnet.
Did that make any sense?
I do however wonder about Nicks new acquisition...
My eyes could be deceiving me, but it appears that it has just one commutator, and that looks like a split ring type, which would make this a pure DC generator.
Perhaps that would make this one even rarer than the "ordinary" dual output Jensen 15D?
Jan, thanks for the detailed explanation...now you have me wondering if I could modify a standard, modern Jensen 15 so that it produced both AC and DC... "should" be possible!
Rog
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Very cool find, Nick! Can’t wait to see it up and running.
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That's a neat thought however there were no flame fired 50's that left the factory that way.
A previous owner built the tall firebox and lengthened the steam and water lines to accomodate.
As you can see, this boiler had a pair of ceramic cartridge insert heaters as did all #50's from the 30's through the early to mid 1960's.
This takes nothing away from the fact that it is a wonderful piece and I believe that generator is the only known example of a free standing DC generator.
The only other flame fired #50 boiler I have seen was heavily modified by Randy Calhoun for marine use. He took a riveted #50 boiler and cut the appropriate holes to solder in a horizontal fire tube to utilize a torch heater in his boat that has a Jensen #80 for her engine. That boiler is also sheathed and insulated.
Gil
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The thought has occurred to me Nick, that you may be in possession of the only flame fired Jensen 50 on this planet, or any other!
Certainly you have a one of a kind there, and it is impressive!!!
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Nick, you sure have an interesting project there...can't wait to see what emerges as you fix it up.
Rog
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Daniel, I am very happy to be that guy!! And also very thankful the previous buyer left it untouched on his coffee table the past few weeks. Luckily the nickel plating is usually quite durable on these older Jensens.
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Looks to be a bit of a grungy mess, but who wouldn't love to be the one cleaning it up and fettling with it to get it back in service!?!?
I know I would most certainly love to be that guy!!!
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The steam line has an added Stuart lubricator. The engine was stuck, but I filled the line with oil and oiled all the parts letting it sit over night. It freed up and turned over quite easily but had something in the exhaust.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48201984762_7c85a66043_b.jpg)
After turning over a few times the oil started to push it out further
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48201984747_03172301c7_b.jpg)
And out, allowing the engine to turn over much easier
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48201934981_d5336de191_b.jpg)
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It appears the mud daubers have been busy inside the firebox
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48201984707_0f9e1439ee_b.jpg)
and in the boiler (also one under the engine frame)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48201984822_7aa00bbd1f_b.jpg)
And this crispy little spider has been hanging around a few years
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48201984787_6a3a71b240_b.jpg)
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Here's the heavy-duty grinder with oil cups, unfortunately missing one of the screw on caps
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48201984852_0e4acd978b_b.jpg)
And lineshaft with flat-belt pulley
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48201984807_e2cd1fcee4_b.jpg)
Flat-belt pulley on the engine
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48201935101_6e1b795a4b_b.jpg)
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Wow Nick, super interesting & this is certainly a different example from the usual Jensen fair, Congratulations !
Thanks Bruce, I knew the firebox was a replacement, but I was hoping the lineshaft and tool design would have been a custom build by one of the Jensen customizers. John Loughner did not recognize it...
I do like the grinder, but it is too large and does not fit with the rest of the tools. The lineshaft is very well made and I would like to keep the set-up pretty much as is minus the grinder. I would like to move one of the end tools in and put a Jensen windmill on and maybe a water tower in one of the other empty spots. I have lots of 3/4" oak plywood that I can double up as the base is not the best...
I will more than likely keep it flame-fired as I have always thought it would be neat to have one, but would never have the heart to do it to an original. With a little fixing up I think this would make a great "center-piece" at a show 8)
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The boiler and engine are both late 1950's through 1961. They engine is identical in color to my 1961 example and boiler with site glass tube, no rivets, and an end to end staybolt also correct for late 1950's through early 1960's. Remember alot of Jensens made when he first started using bricked sheet metal also had dark blue engine and generator parts.
The generator is also of the correct time frame which is anytime after 1951 when he started using the same 3 piece magnet used today.
I knew that the copper brick fireboxes were used with some dark blue engines but I have never seen it on a 50...
And I did not realize the generator could be that old, I had always assumed these were a later design, like late '80's to early '90's
By the way, if you had to, I imagine you might be able to get Andy and Dorita to rewind your coil.
Let's cross our fingers that it will work with the current windings ;)
A big CONGRATULATIONS, Nick....!!!
Very well done......!!!!
Gil
Thank you Gil, it was a long drive back peeking at the engine through the rear view mirror. By the way, seen your call I missed, I'll give you a call tomorrow.
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Wow Nick, super interesting & this is certainly a different example from the usual Jensen fair, Congratulations !
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The boiler and engine are both late 1950's through 1961. They engine is identical in color to my 1961 example and boiler with site glass tube, no rivets, and an end to end staybolt also correct for late 1950's through early 1960's. Remember alot of Jensens made when he first started using bricked sheet metal also had dark blue engine and generator parts.
The generator is also of the correct time frame which is anytime after 1951 when he started using the same 3 piece magnet used today.
By the way, if you had to, I imagine you might be able to get Andy and Dorita to rewind your coil.
A big CONGRATULATIONS, Nick....!!!
Very well done......!!!!
Gil
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Nick you've got a DC generator! It's as rare as hens teeth and then some.
It is the only one I have seen.
Gil
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Will be looking forward to your report Nick, and congratulations on that very special plant alltogether !!!
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I have only dusted the winding area as I do not want to do any damage, but the areas of the copper that are darker feel rough like there is no coating, almost like the copper had corroded through the coating... It's very easy to take this one apart, so I will test it as is.
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The clearcoat on copperwire used for windings on motors/generators usually is very sturdy, so i strongly assume that it on this one appears more damaged than it in reality is.
If that isn´t the case it most likely won´t work...or at least produce a very different output than intended, as the number of windings effectively would be altered with shorts in there.
However, if the clearcoat missing is solely on the outside of the exterior windings, it shouldn´t effect anything since the voltage output of this generator is relatively low.
In any case, be very gentle when cleaning that area...
Fingers crossed from here Nick !!!
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I do however wonder about Nicks new acquisition...
My eyes could be deceiving me, but it appears that it has just one commutator, and that looks like a split ring type, which would make this a pure DC generator.
Perhaps that would make this one even rarer than the "ordinary" dual output Jensen 15D?[/size]
Thank you for that explanation Jan. Yes the ring is split and one side of the windings go to one half and the other side the other half with a brush on each side. I have disassembled this and began carefully cleaning, but unfortunately it was stored in a very poor environment and some of the clear coat is missing from the windings... will it still work?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48192607017_ac9b335b33_b.jpg)
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Fantastic addition Nick, congrats !!!
When will you release a pic of the whole board, i´m quite curious
Well... Since you asked... ;)
I have sent pics to John Loughner in case he recognizes where this one came from. To me it is either made from two 50's of different eras or put together by someone that had access to leftover factory parts... The tube glass boiler (2 heater) and dark blue cast base don't fit the time period of the copper-brick smoke stack support and the 15-D generator...
Also came with a nice 504 burner and a very well made lineshaft.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48189506121_66d6590a36_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48189506161_3b4d2e8278_b.jpg)
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Fantastic addition Nick, congrats !!!
When will you release a pic of the whole board, i´m quite curious
I would love to understand how this one generator can produce both AC and DC...does anyone know a layman's explanation???
Rog
The standard #15 AC "alternator" we all know runs with a simple solid slipring for the brush (second "brush" on some cast iron versions is the bearingpost itself, and the shaft acting as the second solid slipring), allowing the current to switch direction according to the magnetism induced, whereas a DC generator needs a split ring commutator, to keep a fixed positive and negative.
[attachimg=1]
If you look at the picture of Jack Boyle´s generator shared above by Nick, you can see that it has two "rings" for the brushes, one in each end of the shaft, making it possible to draw both AC and DC from the same permanent magnet.
Did that make any sense?
I do however wonder about Nicks new acquisition...
My eyes could be deceiving me, but it appears that it has just one commutator, and that looks like a split ring type, which would make this a pure DC generator.
Perhaps that would make this one even rarer than the "ordinary" dual output Jensen 15D?
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I would love to understand how this one generator can produce both AC and DC...does anyone know a layman's explanation???
Rog
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very happy for you Nick, quite an exciting find.
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I used to be crazy too Nick (thinking of my Feb. trip to NJ for Maggie) but I understand - what's a thousand miles when it's for something really great............ and it definitely is - well done!
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48192561846_b11b0f88b3_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48192607017_ac9b335b33_b.jpg)
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Nick, you have probably landed the rarest of Jensen generators. I believe those were only made to use on Jensen 50's and 51's and produced AC & DC... something I have never understood how possible from same generator, but it's true.
Hell of a drive, but rare and desirable for sure.
Rog
This whole purchase is a confusing one... quite a mis-match of parts... (more to come)
But as for this 15-D, the lamp-post is built into the base itself, on the 51's it has a stand-alone lamp-post and is also stand-alone on the Jensen museum page 15-D/lineshaft/saw combo
screenshot from Jack Boyle's 51
[attachimg=1]
Jensen museum
[attachimg=2]
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Nick, you have probably landed the rarest of Jensen generators. I believe those were only made to use on Jensen 50's and 51's and produced AC & DC... something I have never understood how possible from same generator, but it's true.
Hell of a drive, but rare and desirable for sure.
Rog
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Must be a very special item ;D
I was Happy to find it ;D
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You are a road warrior like me, Charlie, and perhaps a few more. We never let over a thousand miles of driving get in the way of anything important!
Looking forward to the rest of the story.
Gil
I figured you'd be proud of this trip Gil ;)
By the way, that's the name of my dad's truck :D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48191462506_a29b9d9314_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48191508547_f9c5c08779_b.jpg)
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Marathon trip for certain and for sure ........ but what's the reason??
Well... I've always wanted one of these 15's, so had to go get it!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48189506001_7d8ecf69b2_b.jpg)
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You are a road warrior like me, Charlie, and perhaps a few more. We never let over a thousand miles of driving get in the way of anything important!
Looking forward to the rest of the story.
Gil
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Must be a very special item ;D
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Marathon trip for certain and for sure ........ but what's the reason??
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Nothing like driving halfway across the country in the middle of the night for a toy :D
[attachimg=1]
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Made a deal yesterday morning and headed down to Owasso, Oklahoma at noon and was home by 9 am this morning.
1260 miles, 19 hours of driving and a very understanding 8-month pregnant wife, 4 year old and 2 year old :D :D
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48189557191_0d49351d41_b.jpg)