Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines

The Regular Stuff: Chat, Buy, Sell, Off Topic, etc. => General Discussion - Model & Toy Steam Engines – Stirling Cycle – Flame Lickers – Small Antique Originals => Topic started by: RedRyder on February 16, 2020, 11:23:21 pm

Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: jkbixby on February 18, 2020, 10:09:00 am
Well done Gil - your interest and awareness paid off big time!
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: txlabman on February 18, 2020, 08:27:08 am
An awesome find and a great story.

Congratulations!
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 17, 2020, 09:14:00 pm
Actually an engine on compressed air if pulling a load will be able to take advantage of the expansion but probably not as much as steam.
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: SeeSteam on February 17, 2020, 07:18:12 pm
Gil,

Thank you for pointing out it's opening the inlet early for the buffer. I shouldn't have confused it with early cut-off for expansion.

I suspect the difference I see in the same engine with compressed air vs steam mat be due to early cut-off. A steam engine under steam will gain benefit from early cut-off but with compressed air... Nope.

I noticed that on some no-regulator Falls, the cut-off is quite early.
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 17, 2020, 12:23:08 pm
Given that the engine is now more than 145 years old, it is hard to say of the timing is still set correctly which is critical to smooth operation on water. Steam and air are more forgiving. Steam inlets closing early is an efficiency measure applied to let the expanding steam continue to work without putting in steam not needed. Steam inlets opening early can help provide a padding effect for steam and air engines. Water motors do not have the luxury of expansion. Both air and steam under pressure will expand back to atmospheric pressure quickly and provide that extra efficiency. The water motors would also not likely ever run as fast as a steam engine is capable of. I believe that for power, the pressure applied by air, water, and steam should all give the same torque at the same level. I don't believe a water motor with reciprocating pistons would ever be capable of high speed high powered operation. These were designed to run off a municipal water supply or off the water pressure from a cistern in the attic of a taller house.
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: SeeSteam on February 17, 2020, 11:17:58 am
An awesome artifact! I noticed that engines seem to have more power under steam than air. I believe it to due to the density of the propellant.

So under water propellant does the engine have more torque?

Very clever eccentric. After seeing that design I am surprised others haven't pick it up since. Although spring loaded cams do the same. Which begs another question, would spring loaded roller cams give better valve timing than an eccentric?

The patent is interesting, the main issue with water engines is the incompressible nature of water. So his valve design is to reduce the "pound" at the end of the strokes. Some steam engines are designed to intentionally *open* the steam early to provide some cushion at the end of the stroke, very bad for water engines.

Watching the video, the engine isn't that smooth via water, so probably why it didn't catch on? Seems like the valve timing still has pounding issues? I wonder if a pressure relief valve on both ends would have helped? Full size engines sometimes have that. (A 26hp Minneapolis engine does.)

*Corrections as per Gil's reply
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 17, 2020, 11:00:28 am
I was ready for this one for sure.


I began collecting research on this engine back in 2007 when I first learned of their existence.


Gil
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 17, 2020, 09:32:16 am
Gil, amazing engine. Thank you for sharing your photos and video. Where/how does the water discharge/exhaust ? Don


Hi Don, This is explained in the video above and with more detail in the patent.
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: don6698@comcast.net on February 17, 2020, 09:21:18 am
Gil, amazing engine. Thank you for sharing your photos and video. Where/how does the water discharge/exhaust ? Don
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: Nick on February 17, 2020, 09:05:32 am
I was also interested to see what that fan went for, great story on it!  :)
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: Nick on February 17, 2020, 09:04:24 am
Nope, I watched it, but wasn’t going to go over $250... premiums and shipping add up too fast in these auctions
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 17, 2020, 08:43:22 am
Nick, did you by chance win the Blue Horseshoe #10 ?
I backed off when it got over 300 to keep the powder dry for the Wilmarth.
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 17, 2020, 08:39:07 am
I was interested in this one, but had two other lots I was determined to get and won them both. Didn’t think of you being there, should have had you pick up my stuff!


Hi Nick, yes, had you called I could have picked them up for you and boxed them today.


I hung around for an extra hour to bid on the Lake Breeze fan for a friend who left at the end of the morning session.
He said if I could get it for at or under 1000 including tax and premium, he would like to have it and would give 1000 no matter what my cost was. So I owned a Lake Breeze Stirling Cycle (hot air fan) for a grand total 30 minutes and put 101.20 in my pocket on the way home.

Gil



Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: Maxwell on February 17, 2020, 07:23:33 am
Good find Gil, glad that you got it.

Nick, what did you get? Curiosity kills  ;D
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: Nick on February 17, 2020, 12:58:57 am
I was interested in this one, but had two other lots I was determined to get and won them both. Didn’t think of you being there, should have had you pick up my stuff!  :D
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: Mi Steam on February 17, 2020, 12:23:24 am
Gil, this is a great fine you have made and the video was
great even with the leaks.
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 16, 2020, 11:57:25 pm
Here is a short film....


https://youtu.be/0V8NsXO9FHc
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 16, 2020, 11:56:35 pm
Not all of the images are opening for me here, likely due to problems on my end of the connection, but those images I am seeing are nothing short of amazing Gil ..... what a find!!!


They might be slow to load the first time you look.

Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 16, 2020, 11:47:46 pm
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: Stoker on February 16, 2020, 11:45:01 pm
Not all of the images are opening for me here, likely due to problems on my end of the connection, but those images I am seeing are nothing short of amazing Gil ..... what a find!!!
Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 16, 2020, 11:33:59 pm
[attachimg=1]

Title: Re: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engi
Post by: RedRyder on February 16, 2020, 11:31:26 pm

I have a picture of another one.

Here is what the lid should look like.




[attachimg=1]


Title: Holy Grail Historic Piece from Rhode Island Auction Seth Wilmarth 1874 Water Motor or Steam Engine
Post by: RedRyder on February 16, 2020, 11:23:21 pm
This is one of those unicorns that seem more like legends than things you find listed for sale as something much more common.


This is akin to finding the Holy Grail and bringing it home.


I was clearly the only one at the auction that knew what this is. It was difficult to contain this sort of excitement.


This story is about a Seth Wilmarth Water Motor or Engine. Seth Wilmarth while running the Union Works in South Boston, MA built the largest known lathe at the time then built the Pioneer Locomotive and the Jenny Lind. The Pioneer was completed in 1851.


In 1874 he patented an improved water motor for powering small machinery such as sewing machines. Since it was expected to replce the treadles under the Sewing tables of well to do customers, it was built in an iron "vase" with a cast top and was painted black with flowery designs in gold and red to make an aesthetically pleasing piece of hardware for the ladies.


This one may have had a working life in a shoe factory in Brocton, Massachusetts as there is a twin cylinder engine mentioned by the collector in a newspaper article from Middleboro in 1952 and some photographs of the collector Eldon Anderson of Wellfleet. This entire engine collection was that of Eldon Anderson and was finally auctioned off this weekend, after collecting dust for many decades in the attic after Eldon passed on.

Eldon and some of his collection 1952.


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Here is the engine:


At the auction

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At home


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