Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
The Regular Stuff: Chat, Buy, Sell, Off Topic, etc. => General Discussion - Scale Model Gas Engines - Hit & Miss - Throttle Governed - Non-Compression – etc => Topic started by: Jim on October 05, 2020, 08:47:08 pm
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Firstly let me assure everyone here that I Always do research before I make statements on products. Always.
The product I linked may say fuel system cleaner on the label rather than the rather misleading mystery oil as on others but they are basically the same product.
The contents of both the product I linked and MMO and many other petrol system additives are basically the same
Approx 70% mineral oil
Approx 20% naptha solvent
And small percentages (approx 1% each) of other various chemical additions.
Some of the minor additions vary from product to product but at such low quantities will have very little effect.
Hope this helps dispel the Mystery
Cheers Dave.
Very good stuff to know. Thanks, Dave!
Gil
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Thanks one and all appreciate the replies.
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From the spec sheet, it looks like pure naphtha, which is probably closer to the stuff they ran on back in the day than either Coleman or zippo. In any case, there doesn’t seem to ba any reason why not. No additives, it’s naphtha. The engine is a low compression engine with a piston ring known to be fine with such, and unlike modern engines, no plastic nonsense except the fuel line, easily replaced if need be.
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Alcohol has a lot less energy per unit weight/volume,
but you can run it at a high compression without the
fear of detonation/pre-ignition. I think 13:1 was
the compression ratio for pure alcohol IC engines.
If I'm not mistaken, they use methanol in the Indy
type race cars. If you see the pit workers hopping
around like madmen while or just after fueling, it may
be an alcohol fire whose flames are invisible in the
bright sunlight. It has happened and I've seen it,
in real time, on TV.
Grain alcohol is the best. You can steam with it,
run it in a race car engine, or drink it for pleasure,
diluted, of course.
Have fun steaming,
Wayne
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I have run my M90 on Denatured Alcohol, and while it did work, it was the weakest run of any of the fuels I have tried.
As for White Gas ... see link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_gas
White gas is a common name for a number of flammable substances:
1. As a generic term for camp stove and lantern fuel, its most popular current usage, also called Naphtha, 100% Light Hydro Treated Distillate, or Coleman fuel[1]
2. Pure gasoline (without additives), commonly used when leaded gasoline was the norm to prevent fouling in situations where the properties of the lead additive were not required
3. Un-dyed gasoline
White gas should not be confused with white spirit, which is more akin to kerosene.
Not a very authoritative source, I do realize.
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My two cents....
White gas has been used for Coleman stoves forever. I'm glad to hear it
has minimal additives - but not none?
When burning a fuel, especially indoors, no additive fuels are the only way
to go. I used 90% rubbing alcohol in the past (I did learn to dilute it a bit
for small burners), but now use grain alcohol, Everclear. You can steam with
it and have a wee bit, diluted, for your pleasure.
So, never burn anything with additives is my mantra. As for mini IC engines, that
ought to be the goal. Has anyone modified one to run on alcohol? The backwoods
boys up yonder in the country used to run their stock car on alcohol. Nobody
dared to ask where the gallons he used came from.
As to oils, the absolute cleanest and most pure oil I've found is Shell Dialla oil.
Very hi vapor and flash point. I use it in my rock saw when cutting agates. Minimal
smell and no danger of fire. I also use it as a cleaner, nice and mellow. makes
you feel like you are doing your engine a favor.
Good Luck,
Wayne
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ATF - the red automatic transmission fluid has been suggested by some as a substitute for Marvel Mystery Oil.
I don't know if good or not.
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White Spirits is Turpentine.
White Gas is Naptha also known as shellite, not to be confused with the explosive shelite which is a totally different product
Dave on that pdf I posted Digger says that White Spirits is a Turpentine substitute and 100% Naphtha.
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Not the same stuff it would seem.
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Daniel White Spirits down here looks like it is Naptha based but has additives -
http://www.recochem.com.au/files/downloads/White_Spirit_v6.pdf
[attachimg=1]
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Thanks Daniel one wouldn't believe this was so complicated hey? But there's no universal terminology when it comes to these fuels.
Also in the shops right next to the Shellite bottles are bottles of White Spirits which some people say (from Google searching) is the same thing.
I certainly cannot say from this distance exactly what your "White Spirits" might be, but our Coleman Fuel is essentially a form of what we here call "White Gas" which is basically a form of gasoline that has no significant additives, and so tends to burn clean with a minimum of potentially harmful fumes or combustion products. White gas here is considered to be an acceptable alternative to Coleman brand fuel for use in lanterns and camp stoves, and so should be a good choice to use in our low compression engines as well.
White Spirits is Turpentine.
White Gas is Naptha also known as shellite, not to be confused with the explosive shelite which is a totally different product
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Thanks Daniel one wouldn't believe this was so complicated hey? But there's no universal terminology when it comes to these fuels.
Also in the shops right next to the Shellite bottles are bottles of White Spirits which some people say (from Google searching) is the same thing.
I certainly cannot say from this distance exactly what your "White Spirits" might be, but our Coleman Fuel is essentially a form of what we here call "White Gas" which is basically a form of gasoline that has no significant additives, and so tends to burn clean with a minimum of potentially harmful fumes or combustion products. White gas here is considered to be an acceptable alternative to Coleman brand fuel for use in lanterns and camp stoves, and so should be a good choice to use in our low compression engines as well.
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Firstly let me assure everyone here that I Always do research before I make statements on products. Always.
The product I linked may say fuel system cleaner on the label rather than the rather misleading mystery oil as on others but they are basically the same product.
The contents of both the product I linked and MMO and many other petrol system additives are basically the same
Approx 70% mineral oil
Approx 20% naptha solvent
And small percentages (approx 1% each) of other various chemical additions.
Some of the minor additions vary from product to product but at such low quantities will have very little effect.
Hope this helps dispel the Mystery
Cheers Dave.
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Jim, I mix it approximately 15 to 1 (2 oz per quart or litre).
I think 20 to 1 will also be fine.
These mixtures are a little rich on the oil and I consider this cheap insurance.
I would recommend against a fuel system cleaner.
Firstly, there is nothing to clean in a brand new engine.
Secondly, these are not good lubricants at all.
Gil
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Next question is what is the mix ratio?
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Thanks Dave
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Any penrite petrol additive, this is on special
https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/penrite-penrite-outback-4x4-total-fuel-system-cleaner-petrol-500ml/569586.html?cgid=SCA010707
Not a fan pf supercheap but that price is too good.
And Diggers shellite is at bunnings or mitre 10 or home hardware etc.
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Dave what exact Penrite fuel additive do you mean?
A Google turns up that Penrite have a lot of different fuel additives -
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Penrite+petrol+additive
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Diggers shellite is basically the same as lighter fluid (zippo or others)
Penrite petrol additive is basically the same as MMO.
Both are aussie products and freely available over here.
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Thanks Gil for the offer, but I'm not sure what customs (at either end) would think of that?
From doing some more Googling I'm pretty sure that Shellite is basically a substitute (and the same thing?) as Coleman fuel.
[attachimg=1]
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I think you are on to something. I was going to look into mailing some Coleman to you. Glad you found source.
I think white spirits is more like turpentine and should not be used.
I can try to send some Marvel Mystery Oil.
Gil
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Thanks Daniel one wouldn't believe this was so complicated hey? But there's no universal terminology when it comes to these fuels.
Also in the shops right next to the Shellite bottles are bottles of White Spirits which some people say (from Google searching) is the same thing.
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My quick thumbnail searches suggest the answer is probably YES ..... however, I suggest you take that answer under advisement and do further research of your own.
You may want to start here:
https://bushwalkingnsw.org.au/clubsites/FAQ/FAQ_FuelNames.htm
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G'day all,
Shellite (An Australian form of Naphtha) and made by Shell is the closest thing that I can buy that is a Coleman Fuel alternative (other than Zippo fuel).
The product -
https://diggersaustralia.com.au/product/diggers-shellite/
Information -
https://diggersaustralia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Cons_Shellite_PDS_Apr11.pdf
Shellite MSDS -
https://diggersaustralia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/sds/Shellite%20v9.pdf
Look ok for running one of Jin's Hit & Miss engines on?