Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
The Regular Stuff: Chat, Buy, Sell, Off Topic, etc. => General Discussion - Model & Toy Steam Engines – Stirling Cycle – Flame Lickers – Small Antique Originals => Topic started by: Jim on March 17, 2019, 10:08:47 pm
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I like to stick with the commercial steam oils. To me the finest is Green Velvet. I have bought it by the 5-gallon pail for my 7.5" gauge steam locomotives. Green Velvet was developed by the Skinner Engine Company for their steam engines. It is not a viscous oil and is light green in color. It is perfect for model engines.
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I like the label and at least you won't think its Coke.
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Have some mixed up in a glass jar now, it will be interesting to see if over time the 3 different oils separate -
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I want to correct some misinformation... Canola isn't GMO.
'In 1974, rapeseed varieties with a low erucic content were introduced. Scientists had found a way to replace almost all of rapeseed’s erucic acid with oleic acid, a type of monounsaturated fatty acid. (This change was accomplished through the cross-breeding of plants, not by the techniques commonly referred to as “genetic engineering.”) By 1978, all Canadian rapeseed produced for food use contained less than 2% erucic acid. The Canadian seed oil industry rechristened the product “canola oil” (Canadian oil) in 1978 in an attempt to distance the product from negative associations...'
Thank you, as a fellow that grew up in Tisdale, Sask. a town that is famous for not only Brett Butt, but also a slogan that didn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out it wasn't PC.
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I had searched for quarts of mobil super 600w forever! Finally broke down and spent $105 for 5 gals. I still have 4 3/4 gal left!
Lifetime supply!
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I had searched for quarts of mobil super 600w forever! Finally broke down and spent $105 for 5 gals. I still have 4 3/4 gal left!
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Do you all feel this works better than synthetic oils like Mobil 1 and, if so, why?
I have used two light versions of Mobil 1 oil ever since it was suggested by either Gil or Roger and have been happy with it, but I am willing to try the Keith Appleton blend as well, some tiny engines just can't take copious amounts of that thick oil. no one oil is perfect for "every" situation imho.
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I'm using Mobil 600W Cylinder Oil that I got off a fellow Australian steamer.
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.....But my mix is 50% 600w, 25% Marvels Mystery oil, and 25% Canola oil. RAPE seed oil is banned in the US. Something about the acids and cancer. But I can truly say that I have done my own small tests and the mix does work. The rpms picked up right after it started to work into the bearing surfaces. I have used it ever since. This mix never goes into the lubricator. 600w super steam oil only for that engine. I had to buy 5 gals of it because thats the only way I could get it. I had bought oil from PMR and it's just not the same as the 600w from Mobil. PMR's oil may be good for their engines, but not for the Stuarts. Kind of like oiling a Jensen with Wilesco oil. Not the same.
Side note:
My version of Keith's mix smells great!
The 600w Super Steam oil also smells great from the exhaust. If you are a steam fan...then you will understand what I mean. Certain oils just don't have that smell!
That matches up to my thoughts well about keeping the blend out of the lubricators in favor of straight SCO. I’ve been looking for a place to buy less than the 5 Gallon bucket of Mobile 600w, but didn’t find any. Guess a life-of-type buy is in order.
I know what you mean about the smell of these oils. While I never sailed on a recip steamer, I’ve spent nearly 50 years around 2190 TEP, and marine steam plants. There’s something about that smell that makes ya feel at home. I’m guessing the Mobile oil is similar.
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Do you all feel this works better than synthetic oils like Mobil 1 and, if so, why?
I only started using it yesterday Larry, Keith Appleton swears by it.
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I want to correct some misinformation... Canola isn't GMO.
Canola has been changed by breeding and genetic modification.
Canola farmers in Australia prefer to plant the GM seeds.
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Do you all feel this works better than synthetic oils like Mobil 1 and, if so, why?
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I want to correct some misinformation... Canola isn't GMO.
'In 1974, rapeseed varieties with a low erucic content were introduced. Scientists had found a way to replace almost all of rapeseed’s erucic acid with oleic acid, a type of monounsaturated fatty acid. (This change was accomplished through the cross-breeding of plants, not by the techniques commonly referred to as “genetic engineering.”) By 1978, all Canadian rapeseed produced for food use contained less than 2% erucic acid. The Canadian seed oil industry rechristened the product “canola oil” (Canadian oil) in 1978 in an attempt to distance the product from negative associations...'
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The Canola plant (less acidic) is a genetically modified Rape plant, its one of the most worldwide planted crops. Most countries still have farmers growing both crops for different uses, human consumption and bio fuels and lubrication.
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I had to make up a batch just for my Stuart #9. I use this mix on all wear surfaces except for the steam lubricator. I use mobil 600w Super steamboil for that. It is cast iron and all.
But my mix is 50% 600w, 25% Marvels Mystery oil, and 25% Canola oil. RAPE seed oil is banned in the US. Something about the acids and cancer. But I can truly say that I have done my own small tests and the mix does work. The rpms picked up right after it started to work into the bearing surfaces. I have used it ever since. This mix never goes into the lubricator. 600w super steam oil only for that engine. I had to buy 5 gals of it because thats the only way I could get it. I had bought oil from PMR and it's just not the same as the 600w from Mobil. PMR's oil may be good for their engines, but not for the Stuarts. Kind of like oiling a Jensen with Wilesco oil. Not the same.
Side note:
My version of Keith's mix smells great!
The 600w Super Steam oil also smells great from the exhaust. If you are a steam fan...then you will understand what I mean. Certain oils just don't have that smell!
I must have about 1000hrs,(maybe exaggerated?),on my Stuart #9 plant, and it is still tight! I have to get some videos up somehow.
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This Thread is going to get interesting quick, I've always wanted to make Keiths Special Blend as well Jim, just never got around to it yet.
I know GearHead Jed has made up a batch.
There's not much that Keith doesn't know about steam engines and machining. He mentions the concoction in nearly everyone of his videos and has used it for years and years and one I watched the other night he told about the expert that gave him the information.
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Parsing through the above, the simple recipe becomes:
base oil: 80% Canola (alternatives are listed)
hydroxy fatty: 13% Caster Oil
wax: 7% Lanolin (also mentioned are jojoba (which is preferred) or meadowfoam)
All 3 oils are easily obtained (Whole Foods sells pure Lanolin for example).
For the wax they prefer jojoba. I picked Lanolin as it is closest to lard in my experience. Lanolin is much thicker than jojoba (I've never experienced meadowfoam).
I remember reading a 2009 post from "kevininasia" and his experiment allowed Tallow to reach a level of 5% in his motor oil mix.
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Invariably we get steam oil on our hands. I myself would prefer a 100% natural alternative.
https://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-029.html
"The canola-based motor oil project was initiated in 1996 in response to a need for a motor oil compatible with, and nontoxic to, fragile ecosystems. The oils are composed primarily of high oleic canola as the base oil. This oil is combined with sources of hydroxy fatty acids and wax esters or estilides. Additional modifications include the inclusion of bio-based pour-point depressants and supplemental antioxidants. The components and formulations are available in US Patent No. 5,888,947 (1999)."
"In terms of functionality, they [canola based oils] have exceeded expectations by surpassing both conventional and synthetic oils in the tests conducted."
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5888947A/en
"The present invention has three main components: a base oil, an oil source containing hydroxy fatty acids and an oil source containing vegetable or animal waxes. The base oil used in the invention needs to consist of primarily triglycerols (triglycerides) and mono- and diglycerols (glycerides) and free fatty acids. The composition further consists of vegetable oils where the glycerols contain hydroxy fatty acids, preferably making up 5% to 20% of the oil. A third major component is waxes composing 5% to 10% of the oil additives by volume. Additional synthetic mimics or natural products derived from animal or vegetable compounds may be added up to 5% of the compositional volume.
The base oil is derived from a variety of unrefined vegetable oil sources including any of the following: soybean, high oleic soybean (>60% oleic acid), canola, high oleic canola (>72% oleic acid), rapeseed high oleic rapeseed (>65% oleic acid), crambe, safflower, high oleic safflower (>75% oleic acid), sunflower, high oleic sunflower (>80% oleic acid) and, in fact, any vegetable oil where the primary fatty acid composition of the triglycerol is 16 to 24 carbons in length. Currently, the preferred base oil is canola also known as low erucic rapeseed.
The hydroxy fatty acids can be derived from castor, lesquerella or other hydroxy fatty acid sources. Hydroxy fatty acids can also be derived from the activity of lipoxigenase enzymes on any of the above vegetable oils. The preferred source of hydroxy fatty acids is castor.
The most common sources of the waxes being derived from jojoba, meadowfoam or lanolin. The preferred source of these waxes are jojoba or synthetic dimers derived from free fatty acids and fatty alcohols either coontrived or through genetically engineered plants.
Various antioxidants are natural with the crude vegetable oils used. Synthetic anti oxidants sources also acceptable. Preferred synthetic mimics include pyrazines and other cyclic antioxidants. Natural antioxidants include pyridines and lectins."
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So would you use this blend in your displacement oilers instead of straight steam oil? I can maybe see why you would blend, or thin, the Steam Cylinder Oil (SCO) for use on bearings and other 100% lubrication loss applications where temperatures are low. That said, adding machine oil and bio oils to SCO seems to defeat the benefits of SCO.
SCO is a high viscosity, high quality paraffin base oil usually blended with animal tallow. It profiles excellent lubrication in high temperature, sliding friction applications. I’m just not sure I want to play with that. I will say that I’ve watched a number of Keith’s videos, and I don’t recall him using his blend for the cylinders......maybe I’m wrong there - just don’t recall.
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This Thread is going to get interesting quick, I've always wanted to make Keiths Special Blend as well Jim, just never got around to it yet.
I know GearHead Jed has made up a batch.
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I do vaguely remember hearing/reading that chainsaw bar chain oilis best on hit miss stationary engines because it stays put while regular motor oil will fling off.
I just read an article and forestry service studied the bio bar chain oils and basically said they are great. I don't know if they work as steam oil, but for shafts, it's probably best and better than motor oil.
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Seems a bit silly to blend non bio with bio oil.
If you are going for bio degradable oil, there are recipes online and companies who sell premixed quarts. I did a bunch of research 15 years ago for my FMZ dishpan stationary engine which is now part of my garden tractor. It's a total loss lube system. So I didn't want non bio oil dripping in the garden. I have since installed an oil pan. The bio stuff I ordered works great.
Just googling I found this article:
http://discovermagazine.com/1998/aug/ediblemotoroil1466
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Hi Matt, its definitely rape seed (canola) oil.
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Perhaps he means grape seed oil. This has a higher scorch temp than most oils. I use it for cooking when I need the run the skillet hot.
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Rape seed oil.........I thought he was saying grape seed oil. Funny thing is - I have both. I do have a question, is that blend with machine oil also used in the displacement lubricators?
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Finally gotten around to making up a Keith Appleton's recommended oil mix for steam engines (he uses it on everything) in my oil can.
50% Heavy Steam Oil
25%3in1 Oil
25% Rape Seed (Canola) Oil
I've listened to him mention this concoction for so long I thought it well nigh time to give it a go