Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
The Regular Stuff: Chat, Buy, Sell, Off Topic, etc. => General Discussion - Model & Toy Steam Engines – Stirling Cycle – Flame Lickers – Small Antique Originals => Topic started by: ShadetreeMotorcycle on February 03, 2021, 04:04:34 pm
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Kindly refrain from leaving WTF in threads I have started please.
I have edited it out so as not to offend the more sensitive members !!
Cheers
Dennis
Thank you!
Cheers
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Kindly refrain from leaving WTF in threads I have started please.
I have edited it out so as not to offend the more sensitive members !!
Cheers
Dennis
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5C collets ?? So you need a set of square collets , a set of hex collets and a set of round collets then you will find something superior called ER .
Only a 1 minute job to change chucks or collet chuck be it 3 jaw or 4 jaw or 6 jaw or ER32
My understanding ( which maybe wrong ) is that 5C only hold on the front end ??
ER hold the whole length thus more accurate.
But then again what would I know as i am not a engineer or machinist .
I am only a Kiwi with number 8 wire attitude and think outside the box skills
Cheers
Dennis
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This is what Hex stock looks like held in a "round" collet...notice the points of the hex are indexed so they do not fall into the slots of the collet. Is this how it was intended to be used? Nope. Does this save time if your lathe is set up for collets and you just need to take some light cuts and don't want to change out to 3 jaw chuck? You betcha!
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Good information Ben , thank you.
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Actually the square collets are the nicest. ;D Centering small square stock in the 4 jaw is a pain. With my lathe I can freely switch from 3 Jaw chuck, 4 Jaw chuck and two different kinds of collet systems. Whatever is best for the job.
Yes, turning the stem as you describe isn't that hard as long as you have a decent die holder for making those tiny threads at the end. The biggest change from the plans is they use an o-ring for sealing the valve turny-bits assembly that screws into the valve body.
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Obviously I am missing something .
Shadetreemotorcycle talks about needing a collet chuck for machining the PM globe valves ??
I have looked at their castings and instructions I have and the castings are Hexagon not round
I thought collet chucks are for round ? And hexagon usually goes in a three jaw .
Can some one please educate me as obviously i am doing something wrong in my workshop.
Cheers
Dennis
Dennis,
You are reading WAY to much of your own personal opinion into my posts.
I said a collet lathe is MY prefured shop tool, not in any way required to turn things round. l have been machining for 35 years. The primary advantage to a good collet lathe is the ability to take the work in and out (multiple times) of the collet and remain true. Often 3 jaw chucks will only repeat within .002 (some worse) so you have to get an indicator out.
Point 2: you CAN hold hex stock in a ROUND collet, I do it all the time! There are 6 "points" on hex stock and 3 splits in a 5C collet, you just have to rotate the hex stock so none of the points line up with the splits in collet. I do Not recommend this for precision work as the points on brass are soft and can be deformed by to much collet clamp pressure.
Point 3: they MAKE Hex 5C collets and my last shop had a full set...picture enclosed.
Point 4: the long center stem (what the knob attaches to) is Not hex stock and many people have struggled to turn that long thin part...then when they do get it made it bends or break when they run a thread die over it. One of the solutions I saw a fellow steamer do is only turn about 1/4" at a time so your working close to the chuck, leave .0015 oversize and polish to size when long.
The traditional way is to turn between centers. I do not yet have my Globe valve kit so after I get them and study the drawings I may do mine differently.
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Obviously I am missing something .
Shadetreemotorcycle talks about needing a collet chuck for machining the PM globe valves ??
I have looked at their castings and instructions I have and the castings are Hexagon not round
I thought collet chucks are for round ? And hexagon usually goes in a three jaw .
Can some one please educate me as obviously i am doing something wrong in my workshop.
Cheers
Dennis
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Yes, that little globe valve kicked my ass. I had to swallow my pride and order a pre-made one which was done quite nicely. Learned some tricks from that one as they don't make them quite like they show in the plans, so hopefully next time I can make a good one.
Fixtures are a must for machining the pipe castings without setup nightmares. If threading, you need to decide what thread type you are going to use. I imported my taps & dies from the UK as they were a good bit cheaper than PM.
Thanks for the heads up on the Globe valves! Now you got me wanting to order a complete Globe valve...If they have found a Better way to machine them and not updated there kit drawings, I want to know as I see me needing Several of these Globe valves in the future! I really love the look of PMR Globe valves.
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I have had my PMR fitting kit ordered from ministeam for a couple days now, and want to make a fixture (for machining) to hold the 90 deg fittings tonight after work...looking the fittings over and taking some measurements, I suddenly realized they did not send my Globe valve kit! I am usually real good at taking inventory of a shipment...a quick call to Susanne at ministeam, she said she had my Globe valve on her desk with a note...she knew she had shorted someone as it was on the ship table after everything left...but she had no idea who...said she was expecting a call...Lol! :D
My globe valve kit should be in the mail today.
Let me know how you do on the globe valve build Ben , I believe that one is above my current skill set. :)
Will do! My last place of employment had 7 lathes and 3 of them where Collet lathes. I will not even attempt the Globe valve kits until I have access to collect type lathe. I have informed my current employer they Need a collect lathe, a 3 jaw chuck is not prefured for this type of work...I have a bid in for a old bench collect lathe in great shape, always wanted one for home use. I will snap some photos of my setups when I do machine them...there Are some tricks to making that long center stem and the tiny threads!
I look forward to seeing them Ben , PMR's globe valves are quite well made ,although pricey.
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I have had my PMR fitting kit ordered from ministeam for a couple days now, and want to make a fixture (for machining) to hold the 90 deg fittings tonight after work...looking the fittings over and taking some measurements, I suddenly realized they did not send my Globe valve kit! I am usually real good at taking inventory of a shipment...a quick call to Susanne at ministeam, she said she had my Globe valve on her desk with a note...she knew she had shorted someone as it was on the ship table after everything left...but she had no idea who...said she was expecting a call...Lol! :D
My globe valve kit should be in the mail today.
Let me know how you do on the globe valve build Ben , I believe that one is above my current skill set. :)
Will do! My last place of employment had 7 lathes and 3 of them where Collet lathes. I will not even attempt the Globe valve kits until I have access to collet type lathe. I have informed my current employer they Need a collet lathe, a 3 jaw chuck is not prefured for this type of work...I have a bid in for a old bench collet lathe in great shape, always wanted one for home use. I will snap some photos of my setups when I do machine them...there Are some tricks to making that long center stem and the tiny threads!
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So you want to get these valves etc to make your engines look m0re professional
That is great but then want to lock tite the joins !!! Instead of threading or soldering
lock tite is a glue and has no place in engineering in my opinion .
There is none in my workshop even for temporary work holding .
Do the job properly and thread them and if that is to difficult then maybe solder but bear in mind threaded are easier to re do .
Cheers
Dennis
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Yes, that little globe valve kicked my ass. I had to swallow my pride and order a pre-made one which was done quite nicely. Learned some tricks from that one as they don't make them quite like they show in the plans, so hopefully next time I can make a good one.
Fixtures are a must for machining the pipe castings without setup nightmares. If threading, you need to decide what thread type you are going to use. I imported my taps & dies from the UK as they were a good bit cheaper than PM.
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I have had my PMR fitting kit ordered from ministeam for a couple days now, and want to make a fixture (for machining) to hold the 90 deg fittings tonight after work...looking the fittings over and taking some measurements, I suddenly realized they did not send my Globe valve kit! I am usually real good at taking inventory of a shipment...a quick call to Susanne at ministeam, she said she had my Globe valve on her desk with a note...she knew she had shorted someone as it was on the ship table after everything left...but she had no idea who...said she was expecting a call...Lol! :D
My globe valve kit should be in the mail today.
Let me know how you do on the globe valve build Ben , I believe that one is above my current skill set. :)
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I have had my PMR fitting kit ordered from ministeam for a couple days now, and want to make a fixture (for machining) to hold the 90 deg fittings tonight after work...looking the fittings over and taking some measurements, I suddenly realized they did not send my Globe valve kit! I am usually real good at taking inventory of a shipment...a quick call to Susanne at ministeam, she said she had my Globe valve on her desk with a note...she knew she had shorted someone as it was on the ship table after everything left...but she had no idea who...said she was expecting a call...Lol! :D
My globe valve kit should be in the mail today.
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There is nothing wrong with drilling fittings and soldering the pipes to them. It works fine.
Brad is quite right , when I do thread them I don't like any exposed thread to show , so I keep it pretty tight when I can , looks more professional imho.
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There is nothing wrong with drilling fittings and soldering the pipes to them. It works fine.
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I have made up many fittings from the parts casting tree , it is tedious & difficult & sometimes I still ruin one , very difficult to get them 100% (true) ,but it is a lot cheaper than buying already made up , & sometimes I use un-threaded fittings & soldered together. A vertical mill is a must imho.
I have access to several vertical milling machines and lathes....my primary reason for ordering the kit version is so I am not locked in to a particular steam pipe size or brand....I have learned many Wilesco engines run 3.5mm steam tube...2.5mm Internal diameter. I believe Wilesco steam pipe is mostly nickel plated brass and sometimes polished brass. My favorite color metal is Copper...the size used is common refrigeration size in copper. I can purchase in 10ft lengths for $10
Most Wilesco pre bent steam pipes are $30-$50 for 1 pipe. I can make that pipe for $1 material so I have $29 left to spend on pretty steam fittings....I never lack for argument to spend $ on toys ;D
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I have made up many fittings from the parts casting tree , it is tedious & difficult & sometimes I still ruin one , very difficult to get them 100% (true) ,but it is a lot cheaper than buying already made up , & sometimes I use un-threaded fittings & soldered together. A vertical mill is a must imho.
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I'm ready for tea!
Nice video, Jim!
Gil
Thanks Gil
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Well, we have confirmed the fittings perform beautiful with threaded joints AND now also with solder joints.
I guess I will have to be the test mule and try my fancy loc tite....if my engine sprays water and steam like a sprinkling head....I will just clean the fittings and solder.
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I'm ready for tea!
Nice video, Jim!
Gil
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Here's some PMR fittings on a home made steam turbine that I just drilled out and silver brazed the pipe into (its handy to have some of the cast trees from PMR on hand) -
https://youtu.be/dAtLPlYfpyA
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Loved the video Jim!
I realize PMR fittings are Way overkill on my hobby "toy" grade Steam models...however I am to new to start investing in the "Big Boyz" yet and need to learn more....also I am very hands on and love to tinker and modify...it will be great practice if I ever Do get a valuable steam engine.
PS: really loved the "boilermaker" brewed tea at the end...will have to try that Lol! ::)
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Here's an example of using PMR fittings (and home made fittings) you can really dress an engine up
PMR sell brass pipe in different lengths already threaded, very easy to run a button die down some brass pipe (I drill out and make a lot of my own brass pipe)-
https://youtu.be/VcdQDbPsMGg
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Thanks Jim!....so if you are using the factory finished fittings and replumb a model, are you talking straight pcs of steam tube and cutting to length for your engine and then running a thread die on the ends of tube to create your own custom plumb job? Or other method? Sorry so many ?s...but a newbie has got to learn some how! :o
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I've used countless PMR fittings they really make a 'model' steam engine look top notch and add a professional flair that's otherwise pretty much impossible to achieve.
I have never used them on a toy steam engine though.
I have bought the cast tree ones and machined and tapped them, they aren't as easy as it would look and there's a LOT of work to machine these Ozsteamdemon and Mr Pete said the same.
The machined ones from PMR after taking in the machining.....are cheap!
The PMR globe valves are par excellence and the best globe valve IMO that are available to the steam hobby.
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I have seen these on some talented Steamers models on YouTube...they are available machined OR as very affordable casting kits you machine your self.
I think putting these on a hobby grade model like Wilesco or Jensen REALLY makes the model look better than factory bent steam pipes.
They sell them in 3 sizes all the way down to 3/16 Outside Dia steam tube.
The factory machined variety seems to be tapped with tiny tapered pipe taps, my question is: If I buy the casting kits I can machine what ever connection methodology I like...could these be just solder joints?...or even more non conventional? Loc tite normally fails at about 275 deg but Loc tite now makes a super high strength AND High temp grade good to 600 degrees!
It would be so Easy to simply Ream my casting pipe fittings out to slip fit of my steam pipe...then "glue" my steam fittings together when re-plumbing my model stationary engine.
I wanted to reach out to the Experienced Steamers on this forum to see if this is a bad idea or get recommended methods from those who may have used PM Research fittings in the past?
These are photos of the fittings I am interested in!