Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
Builds, Repairs, Show Your Machines! => Technical Tips, Builds, and Help => Topic started by: mauricedelaat on June 06, 2021, 10:41:57 am
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Forum Member and Friend Danny aka Nuvolari has an excellent section in his website on this topic.
https://www.stoomwereld.be/brass-steel-blue-patination/
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In the book of thing mentioned above the brass section starts on page 127
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No, only this colour. But if you leave it for just a short time, it gets less intense.
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Thanks for the info Maurice!
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This is the site with ple ty old books !
http://www.survivorlibrary.com/library-download
Maurice.
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Hey guys,
found it on my favorite book site, its free:
https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.survivorlibrary.com/library/henleys_twentieth_century_formulas-1914.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjD3ITEoYbxAhXbBGMBHS2kAwIQFnoECAYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3wB-7iUv-W3609qONahAgD
Btw, there are many very interesting books here !
Maurice.
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Hello Scorpion2NZ, Hello Maurice,
maybe we should stare into the crystal ball. The book seems to lead us straight into the witch's kitchen. What are we brewing together? I'm in! ;D
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I make no comment or recommendation as to suitability of procssses .
But rather what i have found
There are various options we could try
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Hello Maurice,
there must be a reason why there are different Bruennier agents for ferrous/steel metals and non-ferrous metals. Perhaps the difference lies in the different effects on the metals. The durability/longevity of the bruennier layer may depend on this.
We should consult the all-knowing Internet on this, or try to find technical literature similar to that of Dennis. Experimenting is expensive and costs a lot of time. Searching for literature may be too. Staring into a crystal ball will not bring us any further...
Many greetings
PS: I just saw, ScorpioNZ seems to explain us with contributions from his book. Many thanks for that Dennis.
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Hi KN03,
Great, that's the recipe:
Steel blue is achieved by "Boiling solution chloride of arsenic"
Sounds bad, very 1900's
Maurice.
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More
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Hi Jurgen,
The oxide layer is so incredibly thin that I really doubt that is does any harm to the boiler.
In fact, if you are not careful it can be wiped of just by rough handling.
It actually happend to me and I have re-done some various times, never noticed any damage by the chemical agents.
I did noticed that the soldered parts do show some reaction with the chemicals, preventing proper oxidation of the brass, but no damage.
Regards,
Maurice.
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Hello KNO3,
also from me a thank you for your contribution. I am familiar with the Bruennier agent from Regner. I have not used it so far because the blueing effect of the antique machines is not achieved so well with it in my opinion.
The Regner kettles are usually all blackened. A trademark of the company. The blackened boilers and the machines look very good. I like it. But with the old machines, the effect looks different.
But my thoughts are also very theoretical and I am happy to be proven wrong by practice.
Stay Healthy
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Hi Scorpion2nz,
Thats nice lecture, thanks for sharing !
Maurice
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The book is
Henley’s Twentieth century
book of
Formulas , Processes
and
Trade secrets
Nearly 900 pages of info
Let me know if these photos work as there are more to come
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Hi Maurice,
until I get clear explanations from an expert, I will probably experiment around a bit. Just not on antique toy steam engine. That is too risky for me and, in case of damage, unforgivable.
"Stoomwereld" is by the way an interesting side, about which I am about a year ago times gestopert.
I wonder what recipes Josef,Jean,Ernst,Georges and Ignaz were using, maybe these are lost secrets.
I have also often asked myself the question of which bruisers the old guys from Nuremberg and Göppingen used at the time. Someone should have asked 60 -70 years ago. At that time, some employees of the Great Nuremberg 8 and Märklin from Goeppingen were still alive. But that obviously did not happen. The interest was not there. Too bad!
Regards
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Hi KNO3,
Thanks for you input, it has a deep black color, did you manage to get different colors with this solution ?
Regards,
Maurice
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Of course. Here are some pictures of cylinders of an engine I have blackened with the Regner solution. Look at the last few pictures, with the cylinders before and after:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/28865130@N04/albums/72157622660772239
The process is easy, just place the cleaned parts into the solution (darkness varies with exposure time), then wash. However, a part of the dark surface oxide will go away with washing or handling the part, this is normal.
This is the chemical I have used:
https://www.regner-dampftechnik.com/product-page/messingf%C3%A4rber-kaltbr%C3%BCnierer
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Hi KNO3,
Thanks for your comment, can you share some pictures ?
Can tou tell us more about the blackening process you are using ?
Regards,
Maurice
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Very interesting thread. I have so far only used the blackening solution from Regner on brass, which turns it into a deep brownish black.
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Hi Jurgen,
Thanks for the tips, I am actually dutch and will check this Jemako stuff out, maybe can get it cheaper.
Even though True bleu is made for carbon steel (like Super blue) is works just fine, which makes wonder what the actual differences are and why it would not be suitable for Brass.
I stumbled upon a post from Danny, explaining how he does the bluing, aslo using balistol and other products:
https://www.stoomwereld.be/brass-steel-blue-patination/
I guess I just need to go buy the stuff and see for myself next restoration.
I wonder what recipes Josef,Jean,Ernst,Georges and Ignaz were using, maybe these are lost secrets.
Regards,
Maurice.
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Hello Maurice,
I am interested in the Brunnier agent that is suitable for brass. I am rather cautious about the agents for steel products. Finally, the treatment with all Brunnier agents triggers an oxidation process on the metals. This oxidation prevents or at least delays a further oxidation process (in steel or iron, for example, rust). A protective film is applied to the material.
I spoke on the phone a few years ago with the employee of a company that sells the agent "Gun Blue". The agent is used in the bruising of guns, that is, for a steel product. I wanted to know if the agent is also suitable for non-ferrous metals. He answered in the negative. You can understand that this made me a bit cautious. Perhaps the agent attacks non-ferrous metals too strongly for steel products.
I would appreciate it if there is a member in the forum who can make concrete statements on this.
I have another small tip. My wife put me on it years ago. She regularly cleans steel and brass fittings in the kitchen and bathroom with a paste called "lemon balm". Is also suitable for silver. I clean my brass boilers, which, when I get an old steam engine, are often very dirty with gummy oil or other substances usually in a citric acid bath (8 g citric acid to 1 liter of heated water). The citric acid dissolves quite incidentally any lime deposited in the boiler excellent. Any impurities still on the outside of the kettle after the bath are polished off with "lemon balm". Always works. Unfortunately, an existing bruenning is also removed together with the dirt.
Lemon balsam has the property that when a bright brass kettle is polished with it, a protective film is put on the brass at the same time. If a kettle is to be bruised after treatment with the agent, it must first be rubbed with citric acid or vinegar. Otherwise, the bruising agent will have no effect.
Under the attached link you can purchase "lemon balm" from Jemako.
Jemako is a Dutch company that, as far as I know, also sells outside Europe. The link is from German ebay.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/153901944282?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=7071533165376683&mkcid=2&itemid=153901944282&targetid=4582627049753642&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=376712746&mkgroupid=1264439088661572&rlsatarget=pla-4582627049753642&abcId=9300540&merchantid=87778&msclkid=3b468b5a3f6b1dd7a351ebe47c95e0d8 (https://www.ebay.de/itm/153901944282?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=7071533165376683&mkcid=2&itemid=153901944282&targetid=4582627049753642&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=376712746&mkgroupid=1264439088661572&rlsatarget=pla-4582627049753642&abcId=9300540&merchantid=87778&msclkid=3b468b5a3f6b1dd7a351ebe47c95e0d8)
Stay healthy
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Hello Jurgen,
True Blue is a product for carbon steel, especially made for gun bluing.
They also have a product for brass, I checked out a video and the color is dark brown/black, I have never tried it for that reason.
Maurice.
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Hello Maurice,
I have another question about "True Blue". Is this bruning agent suitable for non-ferrous metals? There are many bruning agents offered, but very few are suitable for non-ferrous metals. It is important to pay attention to this.
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What is title of the book ?
If it can be shared in the forum, then YES please.
Maurice
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It may or may not be of interest but i have a book here that has blueing and other colours recipes the book is from 1977 and has formulas and processes for just about anything you can think off measurements used are ounces and grains and quarts and some of the chemicals will require translating to common english
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Hi Jurgen,
I use some stuff called True Blue, it comes in a 100ml bottle for about 17 euros.
I mix this 1:20 so I get 2 liters of buing chemicals.
This mixture will deteriorate whem exposed to sunlight, so keep it in a box and it will stay good for a very long time.
There will always be some contamination from the boiler or whatever you are bluing and eventually the chemicals will weaken.
I guess that "super blue" will work the same.
Maurice.
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Hello Maurice,
There is a good reason why I paint my boilers with Nerofor. Nerofor is not cheap. 1 liter of the chemical costs about € 140.00. So you can imagine that I prefer to paint the boilers. This is a tedious business, but as you can see from my examples, with quite a respectable result.
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Hi Jurgen,
Thanks for your valuable input, from what I understand you paint the boiler directly with chemicals ?
I have tried that once, but it showed many stains, the result was not uniform, that why I use a solution with water.
I have never tried to pre-wash them with citric acid, I will definitely try that.
Thanks,
Maurice.
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Hello Maurice,
I have already written something on the subject in my thread "Another Doll & Co." at your suggestion. You are right, a separate post should be dedicated to the subject.
I have said in my above post that I use "Nerofor" from Ballistol for burnishing brass.
When I use "Nerofor" on brass, I get the following reaction: the coloration goes to brownish, but with a blue shimmer. The intensity of the coloration depends on the exposure time of the chemical to the material. After pretreating the material to be blued with citric acid to remove fingerprints and any oily residue, I coat the object with Nerofor until an even brown-black layer is formed. Then I leave the chemical on for varying lengths of time, depending on the degree of tinting I want to achieve. Then the object is washed off with clear water.
I have no idea what the blue tinting of the old steam engines looked like in the original. After all, that was 100 years ago. Meanwhile, after careful cleaning, all of my bronzed boilers have a brownish base tone with a blue sheen. I always try to preserve the original bluing. Damaged areas can be painted over perfectly with Nerofor, as described above. In any case, I have had only good experiences with the product. However, I have not tried any other agent.
I am not a chemist or metallurgist to be able to explain exactly how bronzing agents work. However, I suspect that the available agents do not differ much in their composition and mode of action.
However, looking at the boiler you showed, I think I can see that
the "blue stain effect" is somewhat stronger with Super Blue than with Nerofor. However, that may also be due to the time of exposure in each case. I would be interested in trying Super Blue.
Examples of my use of Nerofor can be found in this forum in the following thread:
https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/collections-pictures/doll-3441-in-new-splendor/ (https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/collections-pictures/doll-3441-in-new-splendor/)
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Hi all,
I did some boiler restorations, including the bluing of the boiler.
I am using a Brazilian version of "Super blue" for ferrous metals which results mainly in a bluish grey color.
Sometimes it result in a brownish color,with the same chemical composition and immersion time, my best guess is that the composition of the brass has a influence on the color, but it could also be another factor which I am not aware of.
I always roughen the boiler with a grit 1000 sandpaper and water, this gives a more consisting result.
I have never used chemicals for Brass, it look that they give a black color to the brass and the chemicals are definitely not for free.
After bluing and drying I wash off the remaining oxides and rub some light oil on it.
I hope somebody wants to share his experience/ideas in this post.
Regards,
Maurice