Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
Builds, Repairs, Show Your Machines! => Restorations => Topic started by: RichSteamTx on September 13, 2023, 12:22:08 pm
-
Excellent job, Rich. Just like factory!
-
opps, delete.
-
I got my Nickel over Steel rivets in and installed today - job done. They could be a hair shorter but I got them snugged down.
Hanson Rivet & Supply Co. - Cost Zero as the fellow just sent me "Samples" of 10 (they only sell in 100 or greater). I also got C4's (Truss) but as he said I wouldn't like them as the head was to wide.
C1-6-ST STEEL RIVET NICKEL PLATED
The little Tonka custom rivet tool I got off eBay worked like a charm too. Anyone that does this too, happy to loan it out. I even went ahead and bought set of screws that let me change the rivet tool heads out.
-
Hmm... I might have to try some of that stuff. [attachimg=1]
-
this stuff I picked up says 400F (or I think it did). So far no problems at all with Permatex and I really steamed the engine up too.
-
Hi Rich,
Loctite 542 is a dark red, almost brown, liquid. It's big advantage is that it is rated at 300 deg.(F) It's big disadvantage is that it's not cheap, currently around $16.00 for a small bottle. :o
It's never failed me though. As long as the threads are clean, and you let it set overnight. I was turned on to Loctite 542 by Keith Appleton, who has a youtube channel devoted to fixing/restoring old steam engines.
Paula
-
Getting closer to calling it done on this little guy. The rivets bits are getting close, so I am excited to see how well that goes. With me using screws for the moment, I can see why they used rivets on the stand-offs instead of screws. The little engine really works them loose - so I put some blue Loctite on them.
My playing with the engine over the weekend and getting it to max stream a new leak popped up. I knew I had a very small one at the water stack but the new one popped up on the lower sight glass fitting. At first I thought my Blue Loctite failed on the pipe threads to the tank (used Blue, as that is what I had on hand). While I couldn't find Loctite 542 around town that Paula suggested, I was able to pick up Permatex 59235 High Temperature Thread Sealant yesterday. I don't know if the Loctite 542 is red (it does come in a red bottle) but the Permatex 59235 is white and I prefer that to red. Either way, in the end that wasn't my leak! These strapped tanks have a brass insert for the pipe and under my desk magnifying lamp I could see pin hole compromises in the sweat seam for the brass fitting. Pretty much the same kind of holes around the water stack that I found earlier.
So I used Gorilla Glue gel, using a toothpick to agitate the gel into the holes and forum a nice even seam around both fittings. No telling how long it will last but so far so good under heat and steam today. Now only steam/water is coming out where you'd expect it to come out! Man, this little engine can go ;-)
-
Once again great job.
As to the paint...in a few years it will have darkened enough to look
like it is a very well taken care of original.
Congrats,
Wayne
-
Have her back together again, though I am using 4-40 screws to mount the wheel stand-offs to the base until I sort (or not) the rivets. I am so much happier with this Dupli-Color Perfect Match BGM0398 Bright Red paint (and lacquer in general). Though it is a bit brighter than the original but not by much, not that I know what it really looked like 70+ years ago.
Speaking of 4-10 screws, I replaced all the screws for the sub-bases and straps with 4-40 Machine Round Head Stainless Steel screws and matching Hex nuts. The originals aren't actually machine screws, their treads are a bit coarser. Aside from that, they seems virtually the same and help the look of the engine (as opposed the worn out / rusty ones).
Photo of my two EMPCO's together.
-
I can tell you when you are painting you never want this to happen with your last can of pain (see photo). Luckily O'Riley's Auto Parts down the road from me had one can of Bright Red (I even had a $5 reward coupon). Also, Dupli-Color support is sending me a full refund for the bad can I got from Amazon. I swear there is something "out there" wanting me to fail at this paint job!
In other news, that eBay Rivet Tool will work (came in today), I actually should have bought the one where you can change the ends out for different types of rivet heads/sizes. The included Rivets almost are long enough. I have high hopes for the ones coming from Hanson Rivet. Many thanks @komet163b for sending me back that base with the same stand-offs so I can practice on it!
-
Found a interesting custom tool for these type of rivets on eBay, used for Tonka Trucks of all things.
TONKA NYLINT BUDDY L STRUCTO, RIVET TOOL FOR 1/8" SEMITUBULAR RIVETS Fixt Dies (https://www.ebay.com/itm/284602331150)
I think it will just enough bite to get to the farthest rivet. I sent a ton of photos to the seller (maker I believe) and thinks it will work but if not he will accept a return for a refund. The tool is at the high end of what I want to pay for one but it's much cheaper than "real" rivet tools.
Also, hansonrivet.com is sending me a bunch of sample rivets to try.
-
that's a interesting idea with a block of wood... i have a lot of time to roll this around in my head. Thanks @Stoker for the ideas / advise.
-
Even without a vise, you can still just mount your backing punch in a block of wood by drilling an appropriate sized hole in the block.
On the other hand, it is only YOU that needs to be happy with your end results, so it really is best to do it exactly the way that you prefer!
-
My ODC will get me if I stick with the screws....
Well, I haven't a vise at all, likely the better long term buy. Then then I have the problem where to mount it. I looked at the MUCH cheaper hand punches that you wack with a hammer. Though I can just see myself slipping and messing up the paint. So when that happens I'd be better off buying that costly tool. So this is what I have been pondering all this time. I taped off those darn stand offs a dozen of time before removing them. Trust me, I've thought about it a LOT!
Oh, then for the squeeze tool you have to buy the little bits for the 1/8 rivet too!
-
Were it mine, I'd stick with the stainless screws (bolts), as rivets can be such a pain and are never convenient in actual use, but only cheap in original assembly. If you feel you must maintain authenticity with rivets, you can always set up a staking station with a vise mounted punch for backing, to avoid the high cost of specialty tooling.
Just my $0.02
-
My little re-paint of my engine is in hiatus. My main base had some adhesion problems, either the Dupli-Color didn't like the Rust-Oleum Primer or I wasn't careful enough getting it / keeping it clean before painting with Bright Red. So, I reset the painting on the base again (the sub bases seem okay). As they say, 80% of the effort on painting is prep work:
- Bought Dupli-Color Perfect Match Primer. I suppose if you are going to spend crazy amounts of $$ on paint color might as well buy matching primer.
- Bought their cleaner/de-waxer too.
- Tack towels to use with Dupli-Color cleaner/de-waxer.
- Dupli-Color Perfect Match Clear/Gloss Top Coat, if and when I get that far!
I have the base re-stripped/sanded to bare metal and two paint sessions with their primer. Wet Sanded (600) 1st round of primer, dawn soap water wash, then Dupli-Color cleaner, and then 2nd pass at priming. Then wet sanded 600 again, dawn soap water wash, and then Dupli-Color cleaner - ready for painting! But now bad weather is rolling in, 100° humidity as I am typing this and thunderstorms until tomorrow. But at least I got the base ready for Bright Red.
I also pulled the rivets of the stand offs and I am corresponding with hansonrivet.com to get new ones. I believe they will be 1/8 semi-tubular truss rivets. Though I'll need to get a 3 inch reach hand squeeze rivet tool to reach all the rivet points (not a cheap tool) (https://www.erivet.com/product_detail.cfm?itemNbr=HS-30E). I'll use 4-40 round head stainless steel machine screws until I sort out rivets.
-
Thanks, Rich. Now I have more Weeden parts to play with.
I'll have to open up my Weeden box and see what I can cobble
together with your parts and mine. Hopefully, it will be
something uniquely weird. Apropos for a Weeden.
Wayne
You have another box coming, it has a Weeden and some bits of a Empire. In side the box today, there should be a smaller box with some sight glass. It isn't packing! There are some other small bits I threw in there too - perhaps you can use them. Hopefully you see that stuff as a good trade for rare strapped boiler Empire.
-
Thanks, Rich. Now I have more Weeden parts to play with.
I'll have to open up my Weeden box and see what I can cobble
together with your parts and mine. Hopefully, it will be
something uniquely weird. Apropos for a Weeden.
Wayne
-
Ya, its been for sale for awhile now - to pricey. At that price range I'd want it to be Empire badged with rounded elbows. I got my pumper and gauger for over a hundred less.
-
Not a strapper, but looks to be in very good original condition!
-
Just for kicks check out this one for sale...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/335034867303
-
Looks good, Rich! "Flash" is the word for that excess metal that flows out at the parting line between the two halves of the mold. Sometimes the foundry does an imperfect job of removing it. (And some times they go too far in removing it!) Also, sometimes you see where the mold halves were misaligned, which is a more serious defect.
I almost always paint cast iron flywheels (hub, spokes, inside rim) with a small brush. Cast surfaces don't show brush marks like smooth surfaces. If you use a good oil-based enamel, it flows out nicely as it dries. After the paint dries a bit, I'll come back with a paper towel moistened with a little thinner, and wipe any excess paint from the sides of the hub and rim. This painting method doesn't work as well on diecast wheels, as the surface is smooth. Spraying works better for those.
Paula
-
now with the wheel painted. I had to spray some paint on some paper and use a very small/fine brush to touch up around the edge to the finish. I actually ran out of paint doing this, though I have some more coming via Amazon (along with Clear Gloss that is the same brand).
I probably should took the time to file the spokes down where it has pour edges (I am sure there is a official word for those) but then again it came with them... plus I didn't think about that until I laid down primer ;-)
-
This Dupli-Color is a lacquer, which is somewhat easier to use. Though I had to learn that it is different than the Krylon enamel paint (guess most spray paints are not lacquer). I would image the original paint was lacquer too? The only annoying thing is the nozzle dribbled some paint on the main base on the final coats. I am like WTF and will have to live with it. I can say I am happier with the Dupli-Color Bright Red.
Photo attached, the wheel isn't stripped/painted but I think I will do it. Put it in the shot to have a bit of a comparison. Though it isn't a really good one, as the paint isn't in the best of shape.
-
Crazy?? Fussing about with old toys is what keeps me sane! [attachimg=1]
-
Thanks @Paula - my Ex (she has a Masters in Art) said exactly the same about the paint matching. I am horrid at colors. Though she didn't sound like she "admired my perseverance", more like I am crazy fussing about a old rusty toy LOL
-
Rich, looks like a pretty good match to me. Keep in mind that paint has a tendency to fade or darken over time, so matching the original exactly might be a futile exercise.
I really admire the perseverance you've shown with this project.
Paula
-
Hopefully you guys will chime in!
Allan (UK - YouTube: RetroSteam Tech) shared that he used Plastikote Super Red Gloss when restoring a Empire engine. Which from his information this Plastikote is Dupli-Color in the USA. So I went down to Advance Auto Parts with a cleaned up pressed steal spare base to see if I could find a better match. I am sure I looked silly as I sat on the floor and pulled 5 cans of paint, comparing them to the Empire base for about 10 minutes. I settled on BGM0398 Bright Red, which are small cans of 8oz. So I got two cans, not exactly cheap at ~$17 each!
I taped off a corner and part of the riser. I then stripped, lightly sanded, etched primed, and then painted it with this new Bright Red. I’ve drawn black outlines to show the separation between old and new. Though it is likely easy to tell without those outlines. I did have blue painters tape down to keep overspray off the Empire paint. Oh, the black outline is slight into the new paint as not to cover the paint line between old & new (I pulled the tape to soon but its just a test anyways).
You should be able to expand the photo. I didn't crop it, so it is rather hi-res from my new iPhone 15 Pro Max. I also have in the photo my B43, while I like that color red, I want it to be closer to OEM.
Thoughts?
Edit: Added a direct sunlight photo. I think it is darn close...
-
ya, IMO the later year ones are all about cost cutting and not so much style (or nickel plating).
5mm is correct for the bare copper Play/Power Boys - mine measure 5.4~5.5mm.
-
Rich, congrats on a job well done! [attachimg=1] Those sight glass fittings are a tricky business.
Have been in contact with Wayne about the missing sight glass on his Play Boy (Empire 92) engine. I think they did the same thing on that model, that is, discontinued the spherical sight glass elbows in favor of cylindrical ones. Like you said -- probably just a cost savings. I prefer the looks of the spherical ones. I'm planning to use 3/16"(5MM) sight glass tubing for Wayne's engine, and probably make some of the spherical elbows.
Paula
-
Thanks @Paula couldn't have finished this little resurrection without you kind services! So far the blue Loctite is holding, I'll put on my list to get some 542 on hand.
Sadly the sight glass snap inside the elbows, likely if it let it soak over night it would have. The sight glass OD was 4.43mm / 0.145in. I bought 4mm glass tube long ago, so I wasn't to worried. The little problem I had was it actually measured out to have a OD of 3.5mm, so nearly a 1mm swing. I corresponded with a source and was told their 4mm tubing has a +/- 0.35mm tolerance.
So my ZerksPlus High Temp Silicone Tubing wouldn't hug my "4mm" glass. Now these glass tubes don't float between their fittings like later models, they are like the older iron base models where the glass tube slides into the elbow. So my mind with to o-rings like I use for those. While I have 3x1mm O-rings that the ID was prefect, the OD not so much. So I have two types of seals with opposite problems. My solution was to use both! I used two 3x1mm O-rings on either side and then cut my ZerksPlus High Temp Silicone Tubing to ride over the two O-Rings. Problem solved and I have a water/steam tight seal for the water level sight glass tube! YAY Me :-)
No other surprises! Putting this little engine is a bit of like a puzzle with all the straps & screws.
I love the style of this engine, as I expected it is one of my favorites. Though I can see why they didn't continue the design - I am sure it was costly to produce with the straps.
Interesting points compared to the later design:
- The Wheel's stand-offs don't have brass inserts for the steal wheel shaft.
- The piston stand-off doesn't have a cover for the steam/water holes. I can see why they added this later as water shoots perfectly onto the boiler/base crack!
- The main base doesn't have a divot. I can see why they added this later, for water collection.
- I really wished they kept the "rounded" elbow and whistle base (like on the iron based engines) though I'd image they were harder to produce.
-
Leak fixed
https://youtu.be/CJxo2wD4VFU
-
Hi Rich,
Thanks for the video! It's been fun watching your progress in getting this engine going again. Color doesn't look too bad to me -- maybe a little on the blue side -- but not bad at all. Was glad I could help you out with the fittings.
I use Loctite 542 on threaded fittings, and it rarely lets me down. You need something that won't extrude out of the thread under heat. And it needs to be a good mechanical joint. Shake the bottle before using, wipe off any excess, and let it set up overnight. The fittings can be removed normally later on, but the 542 crystallizes as it cures, and can be a bit of a pain to remove before resealing the joint.
Happy steaming, my friend!
Paula
-
1st run video! Not happy with the paint color, once I find a better color match I will re-do it. I hear Plastikote Gloss Super Red is good from Allan in the UK but never heard of it. I have a little leak on the lower boiler pipe to tank - looks like pipe dope isn't going to cut it.
Thank you Wayne & Paula!
https://youtu.be/iIgN2MaOzc0
-
@komet163b - yes it is - glad you like the progress! The only part that didn't come from your donor is the little pump base :-)
You have been super cool by sending not one but two shipments of parts. I have been gathering various parts of a later pressed steel Empire engine to send back to you, for you to build out or for spare parts. I also need to find that darn box of Weeden engine parts too that I have promised you.
-
Excuse me....Is that the woebegone engine I sent you?
No, it can't be.
Glad I sent it to you,
Wayne
-
Got new cans from Napa, the labels look like what you see on the Krylon site and even the spray nozzle is different - easier to control the strap. Though still came out a darker red than my very 1st cans I bought. My Empire Playboy & Power Boy are closer to this color red. I don't think I have it in me to buy even more paint cans and stripping the parts down.
Paula has the tank & fittings coming to me in the mail and I have my newly made heater blanket ready. While I was really lucky the mica was in near perfect shape I reinforced with some of my new stock. I'll have to find my glass tube stock or at least I think I have some that will fit the smaller fittings.
Here is a photo - same out so-so but far better than when I started out, so I'll take that as a win. I don't think I'll re-paint the wheel, I did try that on a engine long ago and it came out a right mess. Though it might get the better of me and I'll pull it and give it a go.
-
I did some research and spray paint does expire. Best that I can tell Krylon has 5 years and there is a date code under the cans, though they don't make it so easy to read. Luckily someone asked years ago on the Krylon side and a staff member decoded stamped number on the bottom.
"To determine how old a particular can is, the batch number should be stamped on the bottom of our aerosol cans/containers. It will start with 1 or 2 letters, followed by 4 numbers. There are additional letters and numbers, but they have no bearing on the shelf-life. In fact, specifically, only the 4 digits matter; in terms of how old our product is.
Example:
EM2352
We manufacture by the Julian calendar.
The letters at the beginning of our code are the plant code and have no bearing on the manufacture date.
The 4 digits is all that is relevant to determine how old that particular can and contents are.
The first 3 digits are the day of the year our can was manufactured on.
The 4th number is the year of manufacture (always a 1 digit number).
So for this particular can, the batch date is the 235th day of 2012, or August 22nd, 2012."
- The can I pulled from my garage trash can has a code of: "HL2249CB" = 229 day of 2019 or August 17th of 2019. At least a year left before "official" expiration date.
- The can that is discolored and not curing right: "HL0764EP" = 229 day of 2014 or March 17th of 2014. Over 4 years past its "official" expiration date.
That is way more than I really wanted to know about the weird stampings on the bottom of a spray can. I hope I can get a can or two that is under 5 years old! Ugh!
-
I hate painting, hate it and hate it some more. After letting my main base sit nearly 3 days before clear coating it wrinkled. I swear I have a bad can of paint, assuming that is even possible. This is the one that came out a darker red than my last can of Krylon Cherry Red RTA9230. The sub bases didn't do this, so I know how to wait enough time (and 48 hours is what the can says to do).
So I decided if I am having to strip the base again, I am stripping the other sub-bases too and getting another paint can and painting with one can. At least I can get them primed... I am getting close to just using a big red sharpie!
-
Things are moving... but still dealing with paint! I have decided I hate painting :-<
1. My new Cherry Red spray is slight darker than my last can - ugh.
2. When the can says wait 48 hours, don't wait just 24 and try to put on clear coat. Made a freaking mess it did and had to start over on the main base.
More parts are on their way from @komet163b (Wayne). USPS is saying Saturday but I think it is lying as they still haven't left Queens! Paula got my tank today, so at least that is on time. Her initial response is that the tank's lower threads should be easy to fix (YAY!). @Paula if you look at the photo in post #4 for the tank; after your nice comment on how the tank looks when it arrived to you - that is how the tank started off before I cleaned/polished it! So I think it cleaned up well.
-
[attachimg=1]
-
@Paula - tank wrapped up, boxed and USPS labeled - just need to catch the Postman!
Here are the three base items painted - just need to wait another day or two before final sanding / polishing on the larger items. I think this time it came out as well I as I could ever get it with a rattle/spray can. I don't even want to try and remove the tape from the wheel stand offs until I am ready for sanding/polishing.
-
What a huge relief - I bet it was child's play for you! I'll do the Loctite on final assembly and yes, hang on to the parts until the tank arrives - hope to get it into the mail tomorrow or Wednesday.
Thank you @Paula!
-
Hi Rich,
No problem fixing the elbow thread. Just need to know if you want me to Loctite the new nipple into the elbow, or let you handle it at assembly.
Also, I assume you want me to hang onto the parts until you send the boiler(?).
Paula
-
@komet163b - I got a good start on your parts. The tank base is all painted and the main base is primed. I also cleaned up the tank too, I'm actually surprised how well the tank came out to be honest.
Hopefully @Paula is having luck with the lower spherical elbow treads. If so, then off the tank goes to her for the lower pipe hole for the same fix.
I am not sure if I have enough red paint for the base, as I used to much paint practicing on the donor's parts. But I did need that practice. If you look at the strap base and then back a few threads you can see the difference with the non-strap base. The strap tank has holes for the straps and then it doesn't have that long divot. So not interchangeable. I also put in the photos the inner and outer straps. They kind of cleaned up...
-
Got some parts from @komet163b today - though I had to reach out via PM more the rest of them from his photos. The Piston/Block is different, where the donor I have has the fold over cover, which isn't on the strap tank model. Also, the donor wheel shaft diameter is to small. The stand offs between the two bases are nearly the same, the strapped model doesn't have brass inserts and it also has a different divider between them. The donor tank is nearly the same but the front cover is raised where the pipe goes and the treads are an insert (like the top fittings of the tanks). Of course the lower pipe was broken inside and just like the rounded fitting I sent to @Paula, I can't get it out!
Another difference in the tank is that it has no screws coming out the bottom. There are actually two straps on this engine model. One inner strap to hold the heater together, then a outer strap to hold the tank to the base house! I have the main base and the base house soaking in pain stripper - not that there was a lot of pain left but using the stripper is easier than all the extra sanding that would be needed.
Still have hopes to getting this together but its fighting me for sure.
-
Cleaning/painting his base will totally be practice, as I just noticed the straps screws into the base from Wayne's photos. Hopefully the little hut I have fits properly, as I can see the holes on the strapped tank's base are different too (round as opposed to oval on the one I have).
I keep thinking about pulling the rivets, they are almost 6mm (~0.22 inches). Pretty sure they are single cap and assume nickel plated but even if a 6mm single cap would look correct not sure about getting them set. I doubt I would try, so much stuff to buy to even try it.
-
Thanks Paula!
I keep missing the postman, if I miss him again today I'll just have to drop off the fittings to you at the Post Office.
-
Thanks for the update, Rich. I'm not a big fan of painting, but sometimes it has to be done. :P
The last six words of your post say a lot. The paint job on a project can make or break the quality of the finished appearance. And it's only by making a careful effort, and making mistakes again and again that the best techniques are learned.
Good luck with your continuing progress!
Paula
-
This is the base and after wet sanding / buffing she'll go through some more coats tomorrow night. This time I'll pull the cars out of the garage and maybe even get a big cardboard box for a "booth". There are a number of large imperfections; caused by wind, my hanger, and tape on the wheel posts. I likely should just strip it down again and start over. I "think" two more coats will even it out, if I get the painting environment just right. I just want see what I can/cannot do with the paint at this point. One could argue it looks better than how it started out ;-)
Heck, this base may not even work properly with what Wayne is sending me. If I do have to use that one, then this was a good learning experience.
-
First off some thank yous: @komet163b (Wayne) for the donation of his EMPCO B43 Strapped Boiler and to @Paula for bailing me out on a fitting.
I been wanting to fill a hole in my collection, a Empire (EMPCO) B43 Strapped Boiler. Wayne showed a EMPCO B43 Strapped Boiler (http://Re: Empire #43 Long Boiler - She's Running!) but it is in poor shape and missing a lot of parts. My first reaction was no-way. Then I came across a EMPCO B-62 that was in awful shape and the boiler's base was cut out to make into a "fire burner" and the nearly the whole thing painted black. But I saw it as a part's donor, as it has the correct "round" sight glass and whistle base for a B43 Strapped Boiler!
I have started experimenting with the "Burnt & Black" EMPCO by stripping it down Citristrip Paint & Varnish Stripping Gel. This stuff worked great, only some minor scrapping of the black paint where the "fire" burnt it to the main base. Though I did have to do a fair bit of sanding (wet 600 to 1000 paper). I used RUST-OLEUM Self Etching Primer, then Krylon Rust Tough Enamel, Gloss, Cherry Red, RTA9230. Pro-Tip - don't paint when there is a good breeze outside. The main base is work-in-progress but the little base for the piston came out pretty good. I wished I could take off the wheel mounts but they are rivet onto the base.
I was hoping to use the donor's tank because I think it is in better shape but it looks like the Strapped Boiler is different (raised under the straps?). I also got a bit of the sight's pipe stuck in the round fitting (Paula is going to save the day). I'll also need to make a heater but I am not to worried about that part.
This could be a short thread, as I am counting my chickens before the hatch! I will be needing some luck to complete this project ;-)