Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
The Regular Stuff: Chat, Buy, Sell, Off Topic, etc. => General Discussion - Model & Toy Steam Engines – Stirling Cycle – Flame Lickers – Small Antique Originals => Topic started by: Bobsmodels on December 24, 2023, 01:06:54 pm
-
Congrats, Bob.! Process of elimination and observation has prevailed once again.
Gil
-
Yes the Dynamo has to be driven by the big flywheel - you have to turn it - output ca 2,5 Volts
but often the magnetos are weak and there can be only very low voltage. I think they can be
repaired it has to be re-magnetised. Don't know how to make that at home?
The Manometer was optional these days - it was available with an additional
T-Adapter. I would leave the cylinder oiler as it is - thats part of the engine's live.
Arnold
-
Good work on sorting it out Bob, sometimes it's an easy fix....just have to figure it out. once I found that someone's really messed around with a plant, everything's suspect.
-
I do have several other questions:
1. the Dynamo needs to be turned around to run off the flywheel, is that correct? what is the output voltage?
2. the funny spring loaded oiler does look like a threaded insert into the original oil cup. It has been there a long time given that the patina seems to match. Has anyone ever seen one like that? Looks like it will screw out, then just need to make a cover. However as it has been on it a long time it might just stay as keeping it "original"
3. Arnold's 4150 has a Gauge on it, mine does not. was that optional? or just on some and not on others? Gen has a 4160 D9 that has the gauge on it. I will post it sometime.
Thanks for any additional information.
Bob
-
Congrats - sometimes it is really tricky -
I ones had the same problem with an older Marklin model.
Arnold ;D
-
Everyone ( I am new at trying to insert pictures hope it got in the right place, if not I am sure you can figure it out)
I found the problem and it was related to the issue I mentioned in my first post, the valve was not working correctly.
After checking everything that all of you suggested and finding that everything was working fine at the crank ie crank end position, slip eccentric free and operating OK I had to look elsewhere.
It was apparent the engine had been taken apart, maybe many times. The Dynamo is on backwards ie the pulley should be in alignment with the flywheel slot. In looking further, I discovered a difference in the valve connection to the eccentric rod. Mine was rotated 180 degrees from Arnold’s.
[attachimg=1]
This had to be the problem, the valve ports were not correct relative to the steam inlet and exhaust outlet. With luck the engine should run if air applied to the exhaust line. And it ran just fine, both directions with air applied to the exhaust line. I disconnected the valve from the eccentric rod and pulled it out. The exhaust port was on the top and the intake ports on the bottom, thus allowing it to run by inputting air to the exhaust line. I rotated the valve 180 degrees and reconnected everything, the engine now ran fine with air applied to the steam inlet, both directions. See video.
Thank you for all the input and Arnold for his pictures which made the resolution easier to see.
Bob
New link should have fixed sound
https://youtu.be/dJ4iJk-zNZI
-
Like I said, different models are different and I don't have a 4150 to compare. Just check your timing as described in my previous post.
-
The 4158 compound is totally different - the eccentrics can be adjusted by a little screw.
The 4150 is a single cylinder with a slip eccentric that can not be adjusted - it has a fix
stop for forwards and backwards movement.
Here a picture of the adjustable 4158:
[attachimg=1]
Here a picture of the slip eccentric with the crank arm - that makes the forced control:
[attachimg=2]
-
Some Marklin eccentrics can definitely be moved and adjusted; I have done it recently on a 4158 compound where both eccentrics are held in place by tiny set screws. It would not run because the eccentrics had moved and the timing was off. I don't have a 4150 so can't say for that model, but when your eccentric is at it highest point it should be 90 degrees apart from the crank pin. If that's not the case, it has moved.
-
The eccentric can not be adjusted against the crank - it is lets say compulsion controlled.
- ergo - if the eccentric moves freely - it has to work
Arnold
-
Arnold
Thank you for the pictures and video. I will try checking everything again later today.
With your (Arnold,Gil, & Parallelmotion) input I will check out the crank, the eccentric and / or the slip mechanism.
The crank was unscrewed when she got it, not all the way off but unscrewed several turns.
Bob
-
I think Brent is right. It even looks messed up. High point on the eccentric should be 90 degrees off the crank arm in either direction.
Also check that the eccentric isn't just sticking between the directional stops. That could easily mess it up.
-
Sounds to me like your eccentric disc has somehow moved on the crankshaft and therefore the valve timing is messed up.
-
Gil
It has been awhile since I posted here. No will not be at Cabin Fever getting to be a long drive and Gen just had a knee replacement and she lasts about an hour in car before needing to walk around for about 20 minutes.
I do have a posting question, when I added the pictures I made the first one a full size, all the rest I I clicked on the expandable thumbnail. The post ended up with all of them large size. I did not want to take up all that space, what did I do wrong for future posts.
Bob
.....
Hi Bob, Your pictures are all of a very decent size. Most of them are around 115 kb and I only saw one just under 180 kb.
Please feel free to post all you want in these sizes without there being a space issue. We accept photos up to 5 MB. It is not required but if you do ever load photos approaching 5 MB, as a courtesy to those with slower connections, a thumbnail is good. This way the viewer can choose if he or she wants to load them. Again, yours are all of a fine size for easy viewing on our boards.
I really appreciate your courtesy and I pray that Gen has a speedy healing with her knew knees.
Please pass along to her my best and kindest regards.
Gil
-
Hi from Switzerland - I have the same engine here - the Maerklin 4150/91/9
The problem from my sight is that your eccentric is not free moving.
I have made some pictures of mine so you can compare (removed covers)
and a small video to prove that it also runs easily with removed oiler caps!!!
Good luck
Arnold :D
video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qlaIVvQKd8
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
-
Nice engines - wish I had'em!
If you ever want to part with one...
I'm with Michael. That obnoxious looking 'thing' on top of
the oiler pot needs to go and something else put in its place.
Good Luck,
Wayne
-
Bob,
You need to seal the oiler at the back of the cylinder. It seems to me that the previous owner installed this rotary oiler cover to easily oil the cylinder before each run using a screwdriver; but it’s not original, and may be that the cylinder is loosing pressure through it.
-
Gil
It has been awhile since I posted here. No will not be at Cabin Fever getting to be a long drive and Gen just had a knee replacement and she lasts about an hour in car before needing to walk around for about 20 minutes.
I do have a posting question, when I added the pictures I made the first one a full size, all the rest I I clicked on the expandable thumbnail. The post ended up with all of them large size. I did not want to take up all that space, what did I do wrong for future posts.
Bob
-
Maxwell
I did not understand your comment " I also would recommend to switch the steam chest oiler cover to seal the back of cylinder oiler."
I am not even sure what that is on the back of the cylinder. It has hole that can be covered and a spring action.
Please advise.
Bob
-
Stoker, Gil, Maxwell
First, thank you for the responses and suggestions.
Second, unfortunately I was not clear in my description of the problem. I changed my message and underlined the changed context. That first sentence describing the problem should have read:
The 4150 on the other hand turns over fine by hand, no binding. However when air is applied it will not turnover and run. ( the underlined is a clarification edit).
Then the rest of the description of how it locks up will make more sense.
Bob
-
Try disconnecting the pump supply pipe to the boiler before trying to run it again. The Marklin ABC 3-way valve may be causing back pressure on the pump, preventing the engine from running. I also would recommend to switch the steam chest oiler cover to seal the back of cylinder oiler.
-
Hi Bob, Nice to see you here.
First... WELCOME ABOARD...!!!
Both your Marklins have brass pistons and brass cylinders so getting the unstuck is usually requiring just penetrating oil and letting them soak it in for a week or two. Be sure to check the slide valve for freedom of movement as well. I once had a Jensen with a piston that freed in a couple days while the valve took an extra week. There are solvents that might free it quicker however you want to be careful to avoid solvent on your good original paint.
Best of luck with these. Your bride has acquired a couple of nice treasures.
Are you going to Cabin Fever?
Gil
-
I do not have one, nor instructions for one, but my first thought would be built up oil residue (varnish) in the cylinder head.
Think I'd put some solvent in the oiler and let it sit overnight as a first attempt to get it unstuck.
-
My wife collects engines and attachments for the last 40 years or so. She recently came across two Marklin engines. A 4150 -91-D9 and a 4160-91-D9.
I usually clean them up for her. My approach is to basically leave them alone except for a good cleaning. I make minor repairs to get them going. She likes them in as found condition.
I have a request on both of these if possible. Does anyone have a link to or a source for the instructions? I have done some searches but seem to come up blank. I am guessing there must be Marklin sites in Europe but have not been able to find them.
The 4160 turns over nicely with a quick test so I set it aside its cleaning.
The 4150 on the other hand turns over fine by hand, no binding. However when air is applied it will not turnover and run. ( the underlined is a clarification edit). I also have not been able to check the dynamo. The 4150 has a slip eccentric implying it should run in either direction. When I apply air through the oiler it will flip the crank to top dead center and stop. I have tried forcing it around but it just does the same, either direction. When trying to turn it there is pressure trying to stop me from turning it. It is almost as if the air is going into both sides of the piston at the same time. I have a 2” scale Case Traction Engine that after 35 years of running had a really leaky valve and starting it was difficult since steam leaked into both sides. I would get steam coming out of both cylinder cocks at the same time. I am wondering if something like that is happening or if the eccentric has slipped somehow.
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated, especially would like to hear from someone who has one of these.
Attached are some photos, the boiler is 3 1/2 “ x 10” on both of them, the height to the stack as about 22”.
Bob
[attachimg=1]
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
[attach=4]
[attach=5]
[attach=6]
[attach=7]
[attach=8]
[attach=9]