Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
The Regular Stuff: Chat, Buy, Sell, Off Topic, etc. => General Discussion - Model & Toy Steam Engines – Stirling Cycle – Flame Lickers – Small Antique Originals => Topic started by: RichSteamTx on February 12, 2024, 10:39:30 pm
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This is a wonderful steamer - so much steam power!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maNL9oparIg
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In more B-43 Pumper news, this is the one I got (like within a hour) of getting the one that started this thread. It has been repainted and some small parts were taken to brass. I replace just about all of them from the spare parts bin where the nickel in okay condition.
The next problem was the smoke stack is the knurled kind, so I replaced it with the last non-knurled. The upside it is pretty shinny, the downside it is a little beat up.
Last problem(s) is the pumper. The pump I swapped with my other, since the one on the engine was taken all the way down to brass. It also has what I think is a odd repair on the bottom shaft and it also leaks a tiny bit from where it threads to the center. There is some solder on the threads too, perhaps an attempt to seal it? Perhaps that dot on the lower shaft is a solder dot by why leave it there? After replacing it with a spring that would actually work (thankfully the ball was in there) it does pump water. Not as good as the other two I have but it does work. The pump shaft seems a bit dodgy and I get closer to the top. These things are hard a f*&K to get apart, so much so I never gotten one apart (only messed up the finish trying).
Then from the photos you'll see a number of red washers. This is because the screw coming out of the tank is to far out, so I had to make up the distance. The screw appears to be correct, just to far out. I have no idea how to get that screw out, so the washer stay in for now.
Video to soon follow.
Edit:
This engine also doesn't have a label above the power connector. It is stamped Empire and "B-43". Its hard to make out because it has so much paint on it. My other one is actually stamped, as just "43".
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YAY - keep the good news coming! Once you are done put up a video so we can see yours work. That way there are two videos up that show a Empire B-43 water pump working :-)
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Again, thanks for the advice and encouraging words.
I got it all together and used a tiny dot of ss screen
on top of the spiral spring to hold it all in place.
Except for leaking at the top (dribbles back into the
water glass) and the ball sticking open (a couple of
taps with the wood end of a small hammer cures that),
IT WORKS! Now, I have to solve the seals at the top
of the pump.
Well, I must cut the run and fun short as it is the last
of my distilled H2O.
Thanks,
Wayne
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Cool - congratulations - I bet you are very happy to have it on the road of fully working.
I think the pump's cool factor outweighs its practical use but it does work to get water in the tank (it's a lot of pumping to get just a little water in the tank). I tired once to fill up the tank when it was empty, that took a LOT of pumping and filling up my shot glass LOL
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Rich....Nickel plating on the pump shaft? That pony left
the barn in the 'Loosening'. I tried the pump installed
and it sucks up the water well. Now I know I need to
seal it at the top and get the 'boiler' port check valve
to work as it should. I call it fine-tuning. Another
challenge to be beaten into submission.
Wayne
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Well done, Wayne..!!
Your patience and efforts have prevailed.!
Kudos to Rich for the inspiration.
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Well done - looks like the shaft is completely lost its nickel coating - must of had a lot of green stuff and calcium inside. Mine had a lot of that at the bottom and calcium but being at the bottom hole I was able to agitated with a toothpick. Where as for yours it needed to dissolve!
I'd would do some more CLR and keep working that shaft up and done. After that some ample oil.
You'll need a O-ring that will fit under the cap. Then insure the spring still has "spring" - its fun getting it just right over the ball and the pump screwed on the tank without it moving.
Looking forward to your update that it's working. I think you been waiting a long time for the pump to work!
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Actually, the video was the first time I'd ever seen
the pump in action. Inspirational.
Well, I wouldn't be putting this up at almost midnight if
it wasn't some good news on my efforts to tame this beast.
I took it out of the vinegar, cleaned it off and got back
to tuggin-and-pullin, twistin-and turnin, seemingly getting
nowhere when, wham, all of a sudden, I went from 1/4 length
extension to full length. It startled me as I was kind of
daydreaming while doing this task. I don't know if it will
work - Im done for today.
Thanks,
Wayne
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Thanks for this, Rich.
First time for me seeing the pump work..!!
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Yes, there are two check balls - one in the center with its important spring providing back pressure (but not a lot). The one in the lower tube, below the center that screws into the tank, should move easily up/down.
It is really odd your problem... something has gone sideways I think inside the upper tube. I hope you sort it out, as I'd be going crazy tying to figure it out.
Edit: revised check sum/spring/etc information.
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Thanks for the pictures and encouragement.
I tried CLR and I do not think it made any
difference. I could pull the rod in and out
about 2mm, so I just kept pulling and fussing
to get it to a 4mm stroke, then a rest and more
of the same to about a 7mm stroke. Not leaving
any stone unturned, it is now soaking in 30%
vinegar. Twenty minutes didn't seem to do any
damage, so I'll check it again at an hour. Then
more of the fussing. Resistance is futile! I
will prevail over this uncooperative Empire pump!
I did discover that there is a second ball check
valve in the top portion of the lower tube. That
one is working well.
Wayne
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Thanks Paula!
There was a tiny leak around the pumper fitting on the tank. I got it sealed but it isn't very pretty. That fitting is very close to the front plate and the steam fitting, so I barely got it hot enough so the solider did flow pretty around the seam. I should have just dabbed some Super Glue on it.
I also got the whistle pretty much straight last night, I used an allen wrench to aline it better (removed the whistle lever to put in wrench through its hole), which also lifted up the dent some more. It is hardly noticeable now - though the crap finish helps hide it too LOL
[attachimg=1]
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Congratulations, Rich, you brought that one back from the brink! [attachimg=1]
Paula
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I did not bid on it. Two is enough for me. I have the one you have and one that has the manometer on it.
That was to Wayne, since it sounded like he was bidding on it or at least watching it. I have one of those namometer's too. It looks really cool but the gauge isn't much of use (other than to look cool, which it does that in spades)!
That's really nice. I've never seen an Empire with a pump before. Didn't know they made them.
Thanks! There are two types with water pumps, this one and the one with the oscillating piston with a reverse lever (could be other types too). I now have both. @txlabman has a real nice video of the 43's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjKjdQCi4JI&t=189s
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So was it you that I was bidding against? Right after I won it, because I wanted that style, I actually got another one coming in really good condition from a off eBay seller (that offline deal wasn't final). The eBay seller for this one said someone wanted post close of the auction but he couldn't come to agreement or something like that. I wasn't trying to back out but for some reason he mentioned some other bidder wanted it and I suggested I could back out. It was weird timing - either get the eBay one and end up with two or pass on the eBay one and end up with nada.
If the build up is inside of the shaft you wouldn't necessarily see bubbles. Even with mine being clogged at the bottom where the check ball I didn't see much bubbling. I'd remove the knob and slip nut too. It is interesting you can rotate the shaft but can't pull it (I assume it is fully down). It doesn't travel much past the center (where the ball is at) - I couldn't image what is keeping it from moving up. I wonder if some kind of other debris has got in there and jammed it up. I do know you can't pull the shaft out from the top, you have to remove the pipe from the center. I never been able to unscrew them, so I assume the shaft drops from the bottom.
I did not bid on it. Two is enough for me. I have the one you have and one that has the manometer on it.
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That's really nice. I've never seen an Empire with a pump before. Didn't know they made them.
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From the top of the pipe to the top of the shaft (knob off) about 1.25~1.26 inches. I am not sure what "catches" it from coming out but I don't think it is anything from the bottom of the shaft. Has to be some other kind of a "catch" but what it is a mystery to me! Perhaps at some point someone else will figure out how to unscrew the pipes from the center, without fudging up the finish! Getting them a part is a mystery to me.
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Thanks. I'm up for any possibility.
When the pump is working (ha-ha) how far
should the pump shaft go up-and-down?
More great pix. What a steamer.
Thanks,
Wayne
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@komet163b / Wayne -
Here are some more photos and I am adding photos of the check ball's size on from my digital calipers (never know when someone is trying to replace their check ball).
The first photo is where I put in a tooth pick - this is so you can see how far up the shaft goes until it hits the top of the hole for the ball. You can see that I have the o-ring still on and that would be the stopping point for the shaft to the top of the pipe.
The next photo is to show, if you look real close, the shaft coming down halfway through the hole. I can't spy anything on the bottom of this shaft that could bind, so I am thinking the problem is further up on yours. But I am just guessing. Not sure if these photos will help you but they can't hurt either ;-)
Last photos is just the size of the ball, in MM, Inch, Faction.
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Nice work Rich.
The first time I have seen a video of the Pump working.
I wouldn't do any more work to it...."the juice is not worth the squeeze".
I think I have to agree - lets call this one "with character" ;D
By looking at it you wouldn't think she was a runner but boy this engine RUNS! It also can run real slow too. I also fixed up the stack too, so it doesn't leak until we get it real hot and steamed up with the throttle closed.
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So was it you that I was bidding against? Right after I won it, because I wanted that style, I actually got another one coming in really good condition from a off eBay seller (that offline deal wasn't final). The eBay seller for this one said someone wanted post close of the auction but he couldn't come to agreement or something like that. I wasn't trying to back out but for some reason he mentioned some other bidder wanted it and I suggested I could back out. It was weird timing - either get the eBay one and end up with two or pass on the eBay one and end up with nada.
If the build up is inside of the shaft you wouldn't necessarily see bubbles. Even with mine being clogged at the bottom where the check ball I didn't see much bubbling. I'd remove the knob and slip nut too. It is interesting you can rotate the shaft but can't pull it (I assume it is fully down). It doesn't travel much past the center (where the ball is at) - I couldn't image what is keeping it from moving up. I wonder if some kind of other debris has got in there and jammed it up. I do know you can't pull the shaft out from the top, you have to remove the pipe from the center. I never been able to unscrew them, so I assume the shaft drops from the bottom.
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Nice work Rich.
The first time I have seen a video of the Pump working.
I wouldn't do any more work to it...."the juice is not worth the squeeze".
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Well.....you beat me for the engine. The third
'pumper' 43 I've seen on ebay since I bought mine
9/14/20. It had a blown heater but the boiler bushings
were all good. I replaced the heater with my first
cartridge heater install, 400 watts, so it ran well
and looked pretty good, but still no working pump.
I've run it a bunch over the years but the pump
was still jammed. It would not go up/down and the top
knob/shaft just spinned, even with the top knob and
fitting removed. Thankfully, the knob has a metal
insert so that is good. The ball-bearing (dirty)
and spring fell out as I removed the pump so that
was good. The bottom tube is clear up to the valve
body, another plus. So, the whole pump body is
soaking in CLR. I suppose that the jam is above
the check valve - I hope the CLR works. Should I
be seeing bubbles come up?
Thanks for the pix, they were an inspiration,
Wayne
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Thought I remove the pump and show some photos of it, it's a pretty simple design.
The pump is made of a upper, lower hollow shafts and a center. The lower has a small check ball inside (the ball must move freely) and the upper has the pump shaft. The upper shaft will not come out when you remove the slip nut/knob and there is a o-ring that goes into the cap of the slip nut to keep water from shooting out the top when you are pumping. I could tell someone tried to remove the lower shaft because there are deep plier marks on it. I also tried to remove it and it would not budge - those shafts are really screwed in!
The center bit that the upper/lower screw into is also for screwing into the tank. Inside between the middle and tank is a check ball and spring. The spring must be strong enough to keep pressure on the check ball but not to strong it keep it from allowing water through.
I have a Stainless Steel Spring set with 15 various sizes. I used one that was 5mm wide and cut it to length. Then I used my pliers to pinch over the end so the check ball would not pass through the spring and into the tank!
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Here is a poor little engine that needed to be saved. I have a water pump B-43 but it has the oscillating piston with reversing lever. This engine doesn't have a B-43 label over the power connector nor is it stamped under the base with anything. Though I know it is a 43, just don't really know if it was sold as B-43 or No.43 but does has all the "newer" designs of a No.43.
As you can see from the eBay photo there is a big hole where the whistle base screws in. Luckily I had donor parts to fill the hole (I wished I could sweat better) :-) The heater was in good shape too, which is crazy with how rusted the little guy was. Oh, as I was flushing out the tank all kinds of dead bugs and cocoons came out - YUCK!!
The pumper, at first, I thought was going to be a loss. The bottom was so clog with hard water deposits I didn't think the check ball would ever free up, much less move freely. But my trusty CLR cleaned it right up but it took nearly 3 hours soaking. I kind of got it to pump water after everything freed up but most times it would not. In the end the problem was the little spring for the inner check ball (photo attached of the original spring). I got tired of fiddling with it and I modified one of my stainless steel springs for the inner check ball. That worked like a champ. Then I fixed up the sight glass seals and give it a good oiling.
I really see no point in trying to clean it any further or repaint it, unless I was going to figure out how to re-plate the nickel. So I am going to call this a "survivor". That all said, I think it is running pretty good, all things considered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6Sljz5VFIo