Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
The Regular Stuff: Chat, Buy, Sell, Off Topic, etc. => General Discussion - Model & Toy Steam Engines – Stirling Cycle – Flame Lickers – Small Antique Originals => Topic started by: TEC on March 06, 2024, 12:52:57 pm
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I'm working on part 2 of the article which will primarily be about Kraft & Huffington, Buckman, Union Mfg and Union Toy Mfg. I'm starting to wonder if the boats, which were shipped in Union Mfg. or Union Toy Mfg boxes, were actually made by them. One thing that might help is if anyone can tell me if the cylinders in the Little Wonder boat are identical to the cylinders on the Buckman Young America or Little Giant engines. I don't have a boat, and I can't see the detail on the bottom of the cylinders in auction pictures. Union Mfg was the predecessor to Union Toy Mfg, and there's a reason the cylinders might be slightly different, even on Young America engines, as can be seen in the pictures.
[attach=1]
@Nick, I sent you some info a couple of days ago, if you haven't received it, check your spam box. don't
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@parallelmotion & @TEC,
Thanks mates. I will post update when I start the boiler construction. I am currently moving my workshop over the next 4 months to a new location, closer to home, and it’s a lot of work; trust me.
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Got it but never heard of a valve of any kind inside a boiler. Mike, is your engine an oscillator? In that case no valves required.
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The drawing in your previous post appears to show an oscillating cylinder so in that case there would be no valve. The "pipe" on top of the boiler may just be a solid rod handle for the filler plug, although it looks like you would need to remove the chimney to unscrew it.
That drawing was from a fire engine patent. Dewey didn't patent Maxwell's horizontal, so its boier internals are a mystery. However, the horizontal was supposed to have a throttle valve, and the pipe on top of the boiler doesn't look like it could function as a safety valve.
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The drawing in your previous post appears to show an oscillating cylinder so in that case there would be no valve. The "pipe" on top of the boiler may just be a solid rod handle for the filler plug, although it looks like you would need to remove the chimney to unscrew it.
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@Maxwell, I take back what I said about the pipe on top being a safety valve. The engine was described as having a throttle valve, and I don't see any traditional valves on the engines, so perhaps Dewey put the valve inside of the boiler. Looking at this engine again, that might be a lever, not a pipe. Perhaps it controls a sleeve over the end of the steam pipe with holes drilled in both. Turning the valve would control the alignment of the two holes.
(https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6988.0;attach=38233;image)
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@TEC,
Thanks for the valuable information. I am still confused with the steam supply pipe attached to the mid height of the boiler, and the other pipe that is sticking out of the boiler top. Any clue please?
The steam pipe goes inside and bends towards the top to pick up steam. This allows less pipe to be exposed to cold air. The pipe on the top is likely a safety valve. I think this was added by Dewey when he decided to use the boiler for verticals. As you can see on the verticals, the frame screws in where the safety valve was originally located There's a traditional safety valve in the smokestack shown Dewey's fire engine patents. I'll be sending you a PM.
What is the overall length of the engine?
I've updated this posting to include a picture. I suspect the drawing is accurate enough to use for plans.
[attachimg=1]
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@TEC,
Thanks for the valuable information. I am still confused with the steam supply pipe attached to the mid height of the boiler, and the other pipe that is sticking out of the boiler top. Any clue please?
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Thanks @Maxwell. The engine base is much larger than I would have expected. I'll provide more details about the man and company in my article, but the engine was made by Dewey.
I haven't yet found any pictures of the verticals. The twin would have been quite powerful -- if there had been some way to transfer that power. No pulley!
[attachimg=1]
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@TEC & @Nick,
Please see attached photos of some of my Buckman engines. The other 4 are in storage. Nick, the plank hot air that you sold me 12 years ago is in the picture.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Thank you Mike, I think this may be the first time I have seen your Buckmans 8) Great to know there is another 3-legged engine out there too 8)
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Yes, that catalog and a few more of interest are avalable here: https://atca-club.org/atca-toy-catalogs/ (https://atca-club.org/atca-toy-catalogs/)
@Nick, seen any of your Day 1 engine in this picture? I have a positive ID on this one.
(Attachment Link)
(https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6802.0;attach=35405;image)
That’s great! Sure looks like a match to me!!
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@TEC & @Nick,
Please see attached photos of some of my Buckman engines. The other 4 are in storage. Nick, the plank hot air that you sold me 12 years ago is in the picture.
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3][attachimg=4]
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Yes, that catalog and a few more of interest are avalable here: https://atca-club.org/atca-toy-catalogs/ (https://atca-club.org/atca-toy-catalogs/)
@Nick, see any of your Day 1 engine in this picture? I have a positive ID on this one.
[attachimg=1]
(https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6802.0;attach=35405;image)
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I think you can judge an engine by the company it keeps--the "Empire" beam engine and Ajax have the same flywheels and nearly the same burner, so likely the same maker. Of course you can use my photo. Is the Ives catalog available online? There were several models of Union/Buckman fire pumpers including one patented by Buckman.
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Thanks, @parallelmotion. Can I use the picture in my article?
The only evidence I currently have as to who made these three engines is circumstantial. Can you judge an engine by the company it keeps?
[attach=1]
The Hero engine, which is also in the Smithsonian, is likely the engine in the front, just to the right in this picture.
(https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6988.0;attach=37646;image)
The designer/manufacture of Maxwell's engine also produced a fire engine. It has the same flywheel and boiler shown in the horizontal above. I haven't found a picture of that engine yet.
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You're young Nick and have plenty of time; just be patient.
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I sure hope I can find one of those someday!! 😍
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Here's another one for your suspected Buckman list--the only Buckman-like engine I have left other than a fire pumper. Known to me only from this page in an 1886 FAO Schwarz catalog (description but no illustration, same page as the better known "Ajax" engine). "Empire" of course is only the model name which is also cast into the cylinder. The burner is borrowed from a Russell Frisbee engine from the same period.
Forget about the Smithsonian engines. I viewed them over 20 years ago in storage when none were labelled or photographed. I offered to identify them at the time but there was no interest. It's even worse now as the curator in charge of mechanical engineering is a marine archaeologist! Identifications and photos being posted now are probably the work of volunteers.
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@Maxwell,Thanks for the link.
I too have found many problems with the Smithsonian engines. The article I'm working on does not rely on any information which can't be tracked back to historical documents. When I've published all three parts, it might be a good idea to contact the Smithsonian.
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Some very obvious mistakes there, for example this “Märklin”!
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/nmah_847222
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Thanks, Maxwell (and Nick). I have positively identified the person/company who made this engine, and it's not Buckman. I'm hoping to find a picture to use in the article I'm working on. The picture I posted here is from a 2009 auction. Even without a boiler a picture that provides a sense of scale would be useful. The company had only been in business a few years when they shut down in 1873. Their engines were more expensive than Buckmans.
@TEC @Nick, the picture below shows the engine I have. I was going to use it as a reference to make a boiler. Also, the frame in the picture is painted, mine is Black with faint pinstripes. (Attachment Link)
@Maxwell, Is this a picture that I could publish? If not, do you have a link? Between this picture and the one above, we can see both sides. I had planned on putting a link to the picture above as a fallback if I couldn't find a picture I'm allowed to use.
Thanks!
@TEC, @Nick it’s from the Smithsonian American National History Museum website; but many of the other engines’ identifications are wrong & attributed to the wrong manufacturer. I was planning to correspond with them to request the corrections; unless someone here on the forum with the required knowledge is willing to do that.
We can even create a new thread that we all participate & agree about the right manufacturer of each steam item, then send it to the museum curator.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search?edan_q=set_name%3A&edan_fq%5B0%5D=set_name%3A%22Engineering%20Steam%20Toys%20and%20Models%22&edan_fq%5B1%5D=set_name%3A%22Work%20and%20Industry%3A%20Mechanical%20and%20Civil%20Engineering%22&edan_local=0&page=1
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Thanks, Maxwell (and Nick). I have positively identified the person/company who made this engine, and it's not Buckman. I'm hoping to find a picture to use in the article I'm working on. The picture I posted here is from a 2009 auction. Even without a boiler a picture that provides a sense of scale would be useful. The company had only been in business a few years when they shut down in 1873. Their engines were more expensive than Buckmans.
@TEC @Nick, the picture below shows the engine I have. I was going to use it as a reference to make a boiler. Also, the frame in the picture is painted, mine is Black with faint pinstripes. (Attachment Link)
@Maxwell, Is this a picture that I could publish? If not, do you have a link? Between this picture and the one above, we can see both sides. I had planned on putting a link to the picture above as a fallback if I couldn't find a picture I'm allowed to use.
Thanks!
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Thanks, Maxwell (and Nick). I have positively identified the person/company who made this engine, and it's not Buckman. I'm hoping to find a picture to use in the article I'm working on. The picture I posted here is from a 2009 auction. Even without a boiler a picture that provides a sense of scale would be useful. The company had only been in business a few years when they shut down in 1873. Their engines were more expensive than Buckmans.
@TEC @Nick, the picture below shows the engine I have. I was going to use it as a reference to make a boiler. Also, the frame in the picture is painted, mine is Black with faint pinstripes.[attachimg=1]
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I am very excited for this article!! Does the engine have a brass cylinder? Does the cylinder head have a slot in it like Buckmans?
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Thanks, Maxwell (and Nick). I have positively identified the person/company who made this engine, and it's not Buckman. I'm hoping to find a picture to use in the article I'm working on. The picture I posted here is from a 2009 auction. Even without a boiler a picture that provides a sense of scale would be useful. The company had only been in business a few years when they shut down in 1873. Their engines were more expensive than Buckmans.
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@Maxwell have you got any oddball Buckman engines to help out?
@Nick, I will return home tomorrow & take some pictures that may help.
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Does anyone have this engine in their collection, or know who does? It's quite rare, last made in 1873.
(Attachment Link)
@TEC, I have one that’s missing the boiler; otherwise, complete, sturdy, heavy Cast Iron frame in a running order. In fact, it’s the largest Buckman that I have ever seen.
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@Maxwell have you got any oddball Buckman engines to help out?
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Does anyone have this engine in their collection, or know who does? It's quite rare, last made in 1873.
[attachimg=1]
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I like that!
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Thanks. I think it looked like this.
[attachimg=1]
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That base is definitely not original, just helps display the engine. No idea what the original base would have looked like…
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Hi Nick. What are your thoughts on the base of your little upright Buckman? Do you think it's original? I can't tell from the pictures if it's a thin-walled pressing, or turned on a lathe. I think I know when this little engine was made, but this base is confusing.
(https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3891.0;attach=18755;image)
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Oh, OK.
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Whoa Tommy, that is one very interesting engine you have there!
Any chance you could give us a full feature thread on that old beauty?
I suppose I could but a different thread, this is Bob's.
Yep, that's what I had in mind!
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Whoa Tommy, that is one very interesting engine you have there!
Any chance you could give us a full feature thread on that old beauty?
I suppose I could but a different thread, this is Bob's.
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Whoa Tommy, that is one very interesting engine you have there!
Any chance you could give us a full feature thread on that old beauty?
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That's a nice engine, Tommy. I have a real soft spot for beam engines. I haven't seen anything quite like what you have, but I'll let you know if I do. The earliest I've seen that style of boiler was 1884. I'm not really focused on the 1890's, which is the right period for your engine.
I hope to have the first part of the article published by late April.
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Oh Nick, you're such a Steam Hound, you love em all.
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Congrats on winning the bid. I do hope it arrives in one piece. It's very nice.
If you have a chance to compare the boiler to your Buckman, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
Thanks! I was surprised it didn’t get more interest. I do have that Buckman with me so will let you know as soon as it’s here.
Thank you again for all your research, I am very excited to finally learn something about these early engines!!
Tommy, no matter what that engine is, I still love it and wish it was on my shelf! ;D
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Hey Bob, when you are conducting your research into Buchman's, can you do me a favor.
I bought this engine about 12-13 years ago and it was said to be a Buckman from 1895.
It's my Avatar here on the forum. Several times I ask if anyone know more about it or
can confirm the manufacturer. Nick doesn't think it is but there's a few characteristics that
are like Buckman. If you run across one in your travels, could you make a note of it,
for inquiring minds that want to know, that'd be me. Thanks.
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
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Congrats on winning the bid. I do hope it arrives in one piece. It's very nice.
If you have a chance to compare the boiler to your Buckman, I'd be interested in your thoughts.
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Thanks, I thought the dates seemed off. I purchased the boat so fingers crossed for a safe arrival. Does anyone know who Walnutts is? I assume he lives close to a Bertoia auction house and always has nice pieces from their sales.
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I saw that boat auction. The info (which should be Hull and Stafford, not Stratford), came from another website (https://www.worthpoint.com/dictionary/p/toys-dolls-games-puzzles/toys-manufacturer/hull-stafford), and I believe it to be wrong, at least with regards to the Union Toy Manufacturing Co. There were a lot of Union Mfg. Companies at the time. Union Toy Mfg existed in 1874, and was still in business in 1890. This much I've been able to confirm from historical documents.
The boiler in the boat looks like it was adapted from your Sphynx Buckman, so I'm guessing it was manufactured sometime after 1874.
Thanks for keeping my request in mind!
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Thanks, Nick
I was just reading from a book that arrived in the mail a few minutes ago. It's called Cavalcade of Toys, published in 1942. In it there's an etching from an 1875 Union Mfg catalog that shows a workshop very similar to yours. On significant difference is that it's powered by your Buckman horizontal (which oddly reminds me of the Sphynx).
On page 200 they write "A boy with a steam engine needed something to operate with it, and so the miniature machine shop became popular. The Union Manufacturing Company of 13 Vine St., Brooklyn, N. Y. catered to this specialty."
They go on to write, sadly without references, that "The Union Company appears to have taken over in 1880 the 'Young American' engine."
Would you mind if I used pictures from your Flikr album in my article?
This was in a recent ebay ad from Walnutts
“The Union Manufacturing Company was founded in 1854 in Clinton, Connecticut. It was a small Toy manufacturing Company that produced Tin and Live Steam Toys. In 1869 the company was acquired by Hull & Stratford. The Live Steam Boat offered here was manufactured sometime during the short period that the company existed.”
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I don't think Ives made the steam engines.
Does anyone know who has this collection of engines? I've tried to get permissions from the auction house, but they haven't responded
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6866489_lot-of-5-small-steam-engines
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Ives was definitely a toy maker but have no idea when it comes to steam engines.
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And this one with matching post card
https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/ebay/old-add-for-free-steam-engine-looks-like-a-weedenbuckman-kind-of/?message=52209
I remembered seeing the post-card engine somewhere. I don't know who made it, though I have my suspicions. The "Hero" "Ajax" and "Empire" engines are featured in the 1880 Ives, Blakeslee & Co. (https://atca-club.org/atca-toy-catalogs/ives-blakeslee-co-manufacturers-american-toys-and-novelties-1880/) catalog. There are accessories on page 106, and The steam engines are on pages 105-107. The Ajax is on page 106. Price is $10/doz.
Thanks Charlie for jogging my memory. BTW, the price for the Hero has doubled from the ad you sent.
Was Ives a maker? Or a re-seller?
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As Nick commented earlier, Union was the successor to Buckman. When that succession took place can probably be deciphered by going though old city directories.
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You had posted a picture of your Buckmans in 2019 in the Mamod forum. That's where I found the link.
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You can use anything I have posted. Do my Flickr pics have watermarks over them? I don’t even remember how many years ago it has been since I used Flickr… I have the originals on my ipad.
Thanks! The pictures are fine. Here's the link I used https://flic.kr/s/aHskRPdCx8 (https://flic.kr/s/aHskRPdCx8)
Didn’t even know that existed! :D
I know all my old Photobucket ones have big watermarks over them since I did not pay them.
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You can use anything I have posted. Do my Flickr pics have watermarks over them? I don’t even remember how many years ago it has been since I used Flickr… I have the originals on my ipad.
Thanks! The pictures are fine. Here's the link I used https://flic.kr/s/aHskRPdCx8 (https://flic.kr/s/aHskRPdCx8)
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You can use anything I have posted. Do my Flickr pics have watermarks over them? I don’t even remember how many years ago it has been since I used Flickr… I have the originals on my ipad.
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Thanks, Nick
I was just reading from a book that arrived in the mail a few minutes ago. It's called Cavalcade of Toys, published in 1942. In it there's an etching from an 1875 Union Mfg catalog that shows a workshop very similar to yours. On significant difference is that it's powered by your Buckman horizontal (which oddly reminds me of the Sphynx).
On page 200 they write "A boy with a steam engine needed something to operate with it, and so the miniature machine shop became popular. The Union Manufacturing Company of 13 Vine St., Brooklyn, N. Y. catered to this specialty."
They go on to write, sadly without references, that "The Union Company appears to have taken over in 1880 the 'Young American' engine."
Would you mind if I used pictures from your Flikr album in my article?
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Sorry I don’t have access to the majority of my engines at the moment, but here’s one I spotted in my files. The pump matches my Buckman workshop’s pump but box label is Union Mfg.
[attachimg=1]
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And this one with matching post card
https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/ebay/old-add-for-free-steam-engine-looks-like-a-weedenbuckman-kind-of/?message=52209
I remembered seeing the post-card engine somewhere. I don't know who made it, though I have my suspicions. The "Hero" "Ajax" and "Empire" engines are featured in the 1880 Ives, Blakeslee & Co. (https://atca-club.org/atca-toy-catalogs/ives-blakeslee-co-manufacturers-american-toys-and-novelties-1880/) catalog. There are accessories on page 106, and The steam engines are on pages 105-107. The Ajax is on page 106. Price is $10/doz.
Thanks Charlie for jogging my memory. BTW, the price for the Hero has doubled from the ad you sent.
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Yes I know they are not all Buckmans and wish we knew better… I do believe the boat is Union Mfg and was told they took over Buckman so I put them together. The orange twin is a Russell Snyder replica built in ‘94. I’m sure you know Russell and he is a great guy to visit with on the phone. He had a rough time in the hospital this past fall/winter and I have been meaning to call him to see how he is doing.
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I have these and have a few more (have added another 3 legged horizontal and another basic horizontal like on the left of my family picture)
https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/engineers-hall-at-our-2nd-annual-(2021)-global-power-up/nicks-table/
Thanks, Nick. I'd seen your collection. Most impressive! The horizontals on the left look identically laid out to the 1870's picture. The beam is also correctly placed! If my research proves correct, those engines, the center 3-legger to the left of the Young America, and the beam engine on the right are the engines in the display cabinet and are not Buckmans. I also believe that the orange twin is not a Buckman, or a reproduction of one, but represents yet another manufacturer. However, the design does date to the early 1870's.
If you compare parts on the center engine and the Improved Young America, would you judge them to be from the same manufacturer?
I'm assuming the long box is for the boat. Does it have a Union Toy Mfg label on the end?
My research is mostly before 1880, 1885 at the latest, so some of the other engines in your collection haven't shown up in my research. The Buckman fire engine on the right did, but the 1872 patent for that engine and early etchings look a bit different from what you have.
I think you might understand why I'm desperate to find out why people have identified these engines as Buckmans. I really don't want to get this wrong.
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@Nick has a large Buckman collection.
I will email you what I have in my files.
See a recent photo of my Buckman Workshop. Nick also has this workshop.
(Attachment Link)
My workshop is slightly different which is why it was hard to not be able to bid on that one you posted during Scott’s sale, I don’t like letting Buckmans get away! :D
https://youtu.be/9XI8gX6hsdY
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I have these and have a few more (have added another 3 legged horizontal and another basic horizontal like on the left of my family picture)
https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/engineers-hall-at-our-2nd-annual-(2021)-global-power-up/nicks-table/
Others added are in post #1
https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/collections-pictures/365-day-challenge/
And this one with matching post card
https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/ebay/old-add-for-free-steam-engine-looks-like-a-weedenbuckman-kind-of/?message=52209
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Thanks, Charlie.
I think I've identified the larger engine in back, so here's the updated picture.
[attach=1]
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@Nick has a large Buckman collection.
I will email you what I have in my files.
See a recent photo of my Buckman Workshop. Nick also has this workshop.
[attachimg=1]
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My world's been shaken. As I was researching my next TEC article I began to have serious doubts about the Buckman label that's applied to so many engines. Take for example this picture of a manufacturer's display cabinet taken in the mid 1870s. I'll disclose who I think manufactured these, and other engines in the article, but before I publish I need to understand why everything thinks the engines in this photo are Buckmans.
Here's what I'm hoping you, or someone you know, can help me with.
- Photos of your engines that I can use in the article of the engine(s) on the left, and all early two and three legged engines. I have don't need these engines (https://www.toyenginecollector.com/toys/search/?mfg__name__icontains=Buckman), or Stevens. (https://www.toyenginecollector.com/toys/search/?mfg__name__icontains=J%26E+Stevens)
- Credible references that identify these engines as Buckmans, such as box labels, or other references that provide direct evidence: catalog pages, articles, or advertisements
- Buckman Company History. I have some of what people have written, but don't know the original source of the information. I have not yet established any link between Buckman and the manufacturer of these engines.
Thanks for any help you can provide. My email address can be found on my website (http://www.ToyEngineCollector.com).
I don't have a drawing for the small engine to the left of the beam engines. There might be a reflection of another three-legged engine in the back of the cabinet, top right. Note that some of the engines appear to come in two sizes. Also note that the back of the cabinet might be mirrored.
Bob
[attachimg=1]