Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
Builds, Repairs, Show Your Machines! => Technical Tips, Builds, and Help => Topic started by: steamwhistle on July 18, 2021, 04:33:52 pm
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Hello,
While attending an antique gas and steam engine show (which also includes model steam too) this weekend, one of the exhibitors had directed me to this forum with great things to say about the group. I've done some simple restorations to other engines. So after a lot of reading, I've decided to take a stab at restoring an Empire No. 90 engine I purchased off eBay several years ago. There seems to be a lot of great information and great resources to get this engine running again.
Here's the engine.
[attachimg=1]
I believe the safety valve has some issues since there's an excess of solder. Plus there's a rattle in the boiler as if there's solder beads from a previous repair.
[attachimg=2]
Also, I believe the heater is toast. On my meter, I get a reading of about 14.8 ohms and there seems to be some sort of a burned spot on one of the elements. Not to mention the mica is just a crumbling mess.
So, while I continue to do some further exploring, does anyone have some suggestions for getting started? I'm hoping it's not a basket case and it's worth restoration.
It looks like a fun project!
Thanks in advance for your time and assistance,
Jeff
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Here's a photo of the heating element. I'm going to guess I'll need to build or rebuild this one.
[attachimg=1]
Jeff
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It does appear the heater is blown Jeff , I'm not totally familiar with this Empire model ,as a general rule of thumb Empire boilers usually have a stud that hold the boiler in place , does this one ? I don't know the diameter of the boiler but if it doesn't have a boiler ho!d down stud & if the boiler is 2.5" in diameter And approx 6" long a Jensen belly heater may work for you. Now re:excess solder , I would probably heat it up and remove the s/v bushing and clean up the orafice (empty the rattling particles out of the boiler) & re solder the bushing back on. If you can't find a heater...a immersion rod heater could always be installed , I don't believe this is a rare plant and thus would get you up and running , might as well take it all apart strip the base and paint it a nice Empire red .
Good luck.
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Good Morning from Brooklyn...
Sorry to hear of your burned out heater. Both my Empire B43 and 43 suffered
this fate. I went with cartridge heaters as a solution. I had 200watt heaters
laying around, so I used them. A bit weak, but they both will run fast enough
satisfy me, especially after a fix.
The 90 is a nice and simple engine. You can drill a hole in the boiler and
use a cartridge heater - it has been done often enough. Instead of drilling a
hole the boiler, I would try and nestle it just below the boiler. Try to get
a heater of 300 watts. When you place it up against the boiler add a couple
of iron (steel) pieces up against the heater on either side so so as to help
the heater dissipate the heat. You could also wrap the heater in a moderate
guage baling wire to do the same. If you don't do either the naked cartridge
will overheat, burn and go...incandescent. Been there/done that. Or, try the
Jensen heater solution.
I've added a video link to my 90 running. It's a bit tricky to adjust the
trunnion spring, but you'll get it going.
https://youtu.be/TZ7GQfOcwmQ
Good Luck,
Wayne
Wayne
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Thanks for the advise on the heater. I've read elsewhere within the forum of folks re-building the heater by purchasing ni-chrome wire and mica sheets too. If there's some suggestions on wire size, number of turns, etc. I may give that a try. Otherwise, I found a 2.5" Jensen blanket heater on their parts site that I'm guessing may work.
Last evening I disassembled the boiler from the base and heater. The whistle came off easily; however, while being very careful, one of the site glass fittings came apart.
It seems the fittings thread into the boiler?
It doesn't appear the tube from the boiler threads into the angle fitting?
I'm guessing this to can be repaired?
[attachimg=1]
Thanks in advance for being patient with a novice . . . this is really pretty fun stuff.
Jeff
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Sorry to hear of your troubles with the sightglass. Another
common problem.
My 90 leaks at the boiler/sightglass joint but still works
as the engine doesn't need much pressure. The previous owner
glued it in with a silicone sealant, and while the fitting
is still loose it works. I'll fix it when/if the leak and
'Pressure Drop' (Toots and the Maytals) gets to be too bad.
Good Luck,
Wayne
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It looks like a Jensen 2.5" heater would work, except this boiler has a stud on the bottom of the boiler. I'm not sure drilling a hole through the Jensen would be a good thing. ;)
Are there sources for small strip heaters for modelers or does one look for something for commercial use?
Going to clean up the solder and attempt to fix the broken site glass fitting. I'm hoping I can solder that too as it seems to be a nice clean break.
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I unsoldered the safety valve and cleaned the mass of solder from the boiler - I'm guessing from a repair. Out of the boiler came (2) nuts and a spring. The screw I removed looks like an ordinary wood screw.
[attachimg=1]
Can anyone help with how this safety valve is supposed to be assembled and work? It appears I have some additional parts to unsolder, separate and clean before I can re-assemble and get working again.
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Throw the wood screw away.
There should be a female threaded bush in boiler
A male threaded plug that screws into boiler bush.
A hole from top to bottom in threaded plug .
A pin with a flat top that fits through plug from the top .
A spring fits onto the pin underneath the plug .
A nut holds the spring in place and applies tension
A o ring or fibre washer is sometimes used between the head of the pin and top of the plug
And a fibre washer between plug and boiler bush
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Got it. Can the pin be simply a long brass screw?
Is there a good US source for parts like fiber washers?
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Hi Jeff,
Here is a picture which shows the boiler side of the #90 safety valve, and also the boiler bushing:
[attachimg=1]
My only Empire experience has been with the B30 and B31 models, but I think there are enough similarities to the 90 to lend my comments some merit.
Your safety valve looks nearly identical in form to the B30/31, with a slightly different body. The valve stem is actually a 6-32 x 1" round-head brass machine screw, along with two 6-32 brass hex nuts. Stainless would also work. Here is a pic of a B30 stack, with integral safety valve, showing the component parts:
[attachimg=2]
The picture shows three different valve washers (the part that fits under the head of the screw), two rubber, and one a stainless/silicone rubber combination. The original ones I've seen seem to be some kind of black rubber with a cloth fiber reinforcement. The picture also shows two different springs: one is an original brass spring, and the other is a stainless one from McMaster-Carr, which can be trimmed to length as required.
I like to use the stainless/silicone rubber washer, as it seems tailor made for the application. It is stainless, which won't corrode, and the silicone rubber is rated to 400 degress F. Also, the rubber extends up thru the hole to provide a seal around the bolt. The hole is 1/8" dia. so it's a good fit with the 6-32 bolt (.136" nom. dia.):
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
This washer is #91195A120 from McMaster-Carr, and costs $3.65. If you don't have an account with them, I have some extras, just send PM.
By the way, the #90 also had a stack attached to the safety valve, but like Jensen stacks, they are almost always missing. It is likewise unsual for the whistle to survive intact, like yours. You're fortunate in this regard.
Paula
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Wayne - Do you have a favorite supplier of heaters? eBay?
I think I'll try the cartridge type and sandwich it between two steal plates and hold the whole thing in place with the steal sheet that held the mica heater. Not sure I want to drill out the boiler at this point.
I thought getting nichrome wire and mica sheets to make my own, but I'm not 100% sure of the correct wire diameter, number of turns, etc. to make a decent heater.
I found other Empire folks talk about making heaters, maybe someone can post details about their re-builds too.
Jeff
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I just hunt around till I see a cartridge the proper length
and at least 200 watts. It is important to add some, say,
1/8" thick metal strips alongside the cartridge to help the
heat get out of the cartridge. A couple each side. But,
I've never had a 90 boiler off the mount so I can't say
exactly what size you would need and how to do it.
Good Luck,
Wayne
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This seems like a basic question, but instead of a single 200W cartridge heater, could (2) 100W cartridge heaters be used to get the same amount of heat? I believe I can easily fit (2) 120W cartridge heaters under the boiler (and some steal or aluminum strip). Am I correct?
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Two 120's sounds excellent. Use steel strips to improve
heat conductivity.
Good Luck,
Wayne
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Well this took a little longer than I expected, but it's back together and ready for a trial run. I ended up fitting 2 110W cartridge heaters under the boiler.
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Here are a few pictures of how I mounted the cartridges. I used aluminum channel and high temp JB Weld to hold them in the channel. I also used some thermal grease on all the mating surfaces to aid in heat transfer. Hopefully this setup works.
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I hope this works, those cartridge heaters can get red hot and I hope the JB weld is up to the task. Might want to use a variac to start with a lower voltage.
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Agreed. The heater's recommended operating range is 0 - 300 C (0 - 572 F) and the JB Weld is spec'd at 550 F. I would say a variac is probably more than a great idea.
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Wow...Beautiful job on the restoration. Very clean.
Very smooth. Very shiny. Very very!
Yes on the variac, or...I use a light dimmer switch of an
adequate wattage capability. I've heard that boron-nitride,
a sloppy and pasty material, is poured into gaps between
a cartridge and the buffers. When it dries it enhances
the heat transfer and has a very high temperature limit.
I bought some but haven't had the chance to use it yet.
Good Luck,
Wayne
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Thanks! Being a beginner - I find the great folks on this forum to be a big help. If this setup fails, I may try something using the original steel plate which sandwiched the old element to the boiler. The problem I found with my boiler (and maybe this is normal), was that the boiler is not a true cylinder. So it took a bit of trial and error to fit my new elements flat against the boiler for good heat transfer. That's why I also used thermal grease.
My next question deals with variacs and dimmers - I know a lot of people use them and they're discussed in a many other threads. I'm going to start a new topic and pose my questions there in hopes that all those great tips can be consolidated for other novices like myself.
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I've added a Jensen 35 run video with my dimmer-switch 'throttle'.
https://youtu.be/zoOc3TL7N1U
Have fun!
Wayne
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It's a bit tricky to adjust the trunnion spring, but you'll get it going.
Good Luck,
Wayne
So this must be the little screw/spring for the piston mount - what is the proper "adjustment"? As I did take this screw off to check things out - which was a PITA to get off and back on again. I just tighten it down went I put it back on. I took it off since I though the piston was broken (the seesawing action) before I learned this is how the engine works.
What was the O-ring size for the sight glass? Mine leaks slightly from the top, though the corrosion has me concerned if I could actually get it a part without breaking stuff. I already messed up my tank after needing to sweat back in the whistle/steam line fitting on the front of the tank. I don't think I'll ever get that front cover steam fixed that I compromised (pretty sure if I try I'll make it worse).
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Good morning from Brooklyn
Yes, that curved plate that goes over/around the trunion screw
is a real PITA. I have two 90's, one I intend to customize,
so I cut that curved-portion off to make access easier. Some
might say it is a sin to do so but I have to please only myself.
So, the only way to describe how the trunion screw/spring should
be adjusted is, keep trying till you get it just tight enough to
run, and no more. Running it on air while doing this will avoid
burning yourself on the hot metal. Get it right, water it up,
plug it in, and away you go.
Good Luck,
Wayne
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Hi Wyane, That is a good idea on the air - right now she runs pretty good but makes me wonder if I give that trunnion screw/spring proper adjustment I'll get her to run better.
I just gave my tank a polish and I can now see the front has been repaired in the past. Perhaps that is why my steam line gave way but I also think I gave it to much wrench too.
Still hoping to hear back on the O-Ring size for the sight glass :-)
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(https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4654.0;attach=24053;image)
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The picture also shows two different springs: one is an original brass spring, and the other is a stainless one from McMaster-Carr, which can be trimmed to length as required.
...
Paula
@Paula - what is the McMaster-Carr part # you used for the spring? That seems like the one you got is good fit... there are only 1-zillion of them to choose from on McMaster-Carr. I got a stainless spring kit coming from Amazon but I am not convinced there will be one that will fit around the #6 screw, go up into the Stack's sleeve, and apply proper amount of pressur
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Rich, the McMaster number is 1986K314. They are $6.12 for a pack of six.
Paula
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Thank you @Paula for the Sunday reply - I have that part number saved away now. If the Amazon spring kit is a fail, I'll get those. BTW, did you find they gave the appropriate pull on the seal?
Of the 5 the stacks I have, one only really seals under pressure properly and that has the original spring. The others are either missing parts, broken or steel (rusted) replacements. I have new #6 brass screws and #91195A120 McMaster-Carr seals for all of them, so many thanks for that part number on the seal. In theory once these are rebuilt, they should last longer than the original Empire parts.
I am going to be one stack short as it is, though I am not so sure if I'll get the No 90 running - it has been bad luck every step of the way. The 6mm Borosilicate glass tubing I got off eBay ended up being a perfect fit but I have had to fall on using Teflon tape wrapped around the glass (a suggestion from @komet163b ). Even if I get it working the tank is going to look fugly with all the soldering I have had to do (but someone did a lot before me - so I don't feel so bad about it). But we'll see once I get the 110w Cartridge Heaters in, so I haven't given up.
Oh - what did you end up using for a bottom seal? Nothing that I have bought locally is really holding well (the rubber squishes is too much). Finding seals with fiber reenforcement has been a bust. I have these hard paper ones but they aren't so good for the stack.
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Hi Rich,
Yes, that's the spring I used on my "Quality Brand" B30. I don't remember if I had to shorten it or not. I think I did. I think the 1" length was too long for the screw I used. Note that the original springs seem to lose compression over time.
I made an adapter fitting to pressure test the safety valve on the B30. It's just a piece of 3/4" hex brass with a 1/4" pipe thread on one end and a 1/8" pipe thread on the other:
[attachimg=1]
I believe the thread on the stack safety valve is a 1/8" straight pipe thread ("BSPP"), a taper pipe tap will work if you don't tap too deep. With the valve/stack installed, the pressure regulator can be slowly turned up until you just hear a slight hissing from the open end of the stack. Also, you could use liquid soap, or something similar, to detect leakage. I set the valve on my B30 to 25-30 PSI.
Paula
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Gee, you totally read my mind on how to go about testing these properly - that setup is dope! What's that seal you are using - I like the looks of it.
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Thanks! I made the sealing washer from some kind of sheet gasket material, using a set of round gasket punches. I don't remember where I got the material. It's brown, and about 1/16" thick.
I forgot to mention about the pressure test setup... I replaced the gauge shown with a 0-30 PSI gauge. I figured it would be more accurate than the 0-160 PSI gauge.
Paula
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Ah, I have wished I had round gasket punches a zillion times this past month (and material too)! You must have a nice shop setup!
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Thanks for the advise on the heater. I've read elsewhere within the forum of folks re-building the heater by purchasing ni-chrome wire and mica sheets too. If there's some suggestions on wire size, number of turns, etc. I may give that a try. Otherwise, I found a 2.5" Jensen blanket heater on their parts site that I'm guessing may work.
Last evening I disassembled the boiler from the base and heater. The whistle came off easily; however, while being very careful, one of the site glass fittings came apart.
It seems the fittings thread into the boiler?
It doesn't appear the tube from the boiler threads into the angle fitting?
I'm guessing this to can be repaired?
(Attachment Link)
Thanks in advance for being patient with a novice . . . this is really pretty fun stuff.
Jeff
Well, I have ran into the same problem on a "new" 90 I picked up this week. Using my calibers the little pipe measures out to be .25 (1/4 inch) and I'd like to remake it. I assume this would be "NPT 1/4 18" or that is what I am going to try with a die cutter (getting these bits off Amazon and they are likely cheap China stuff). While it won't be nickel plated, it is small enough perhaps it won't bother me much (plus it is the bottom pipe). A zillion years ago I watched my Dad use Tap & Die for water & gas pipping around our old house, so I more or less understand the concept (but haven't done it myself).
@Paula - I little birdie tells me you might have done this? Or perhaps you made a new pipe @steamwhistle for your 90? If that is correct, I'd love any information you could provide :-)
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Well, I have ran into the same problem on a "new" 90 I picked up this week. Using my calibers the little pipe measures out to be .25 (1/4 inch) and I'd like to remake it. I assume this would be "NPT 1/4 18" or that is what I am going to try with a die cutter (getting these bits off Amazon and they are likely cheap China stuff). While it won't be nickel plated, it is small enough perhaps it won't bother me much (plus it is the bottom pipe). A zillion years ago I watched my Dad use Tap & Die for water & gas pipping around our old house, so I more or less understand the concept (but haven't done it myself).
Paula - I little birdie tells me you might have done this? Or perhaps you made a new pipe steamwhistle for your 90? If that is correct, I'd love any information you could provide :-)
Hi Rich,
Are we talking about the pipe nipple that comprises the horizontal portion of the sight glass elbow? If so, my expertise only applies to the B30/B31 style, with the spherical body, though the Model 90 might well use the same nipple. The one for the B30/B31 measures .25"O.D. x .50" long, each end threaded a distance of .15". Here's a picture of a broken one:
[attachimg=1]
The thread is a 1/4-40 "ME" (Model Engineer) thread. There is also a 1/4-40 "MTP" (Model Taper Pipe), which has a tapered thread. The NPT 1/4-18 you mentioned would be WAY too large, with an O.D. of around 9/16". More information and/or pics would help me understand what you need. I may be able to help.
Paula
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That is what I was afraid of that the NPT 1/4-18 would be to big. Rats. The pipe nipple is the same as in steamwhistle photo in a few posts back and is attached here.
I have the pipe nipple in my caliper, though it is missing one side of the threaded pipe (it disintegrated) - so the reading shown in the caliper is a bit short.[attach=3]
Edit:
I believe this die from eBay is what I need: Live Steam 1/4-40 ME Die - New Train Tool (https://www.ebay.com/itm/125640816648)
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Looks like the same one as used on the B30/B31. Is the broken portion still in the boiler or sight glass fitting? If so, that might the bigger issue.
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It was in the sight glass fitting, I used a extractor tool that got the nub out of the fitting. The threads in the cooper tank just kind of fell out in little bits.
My dad's tap & die set handle isn't for the round dies but for the hex kind... now I need to find a round die handle. Knowing my luck I'll have to buy a die set for a handle.
@Paula - thank your for popping in and helping!
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I suppose I should show this "new" 90. I was the only eBay bidder at $99 and I was half hoping someone else would bin it from me, I have a 90 already but its the one I had to do a lot of work on it (and I would not call it quality work either). It's base is a bit nasty but until I had the misfortune of a broken lower sight fitting (it was 100% clogged and I was trying to clean it out) the main features were great, including a working heater blanket. It even has its whistle top but I have it off as not to mess it up.
[attach=1]
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Rich,
For my situation, I was able to carefully clean both pieces, clamp them together, and re-solder. I don't recall what type of solder I used, but it had a fairly high melting temperature (not silver solder though). I've run this engine several times since the repair and it's held up so far.
Jeff
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That is a good solution @steamwhistle but sadly I busted both sides of the threads somehow. Luckily @Paula is whipping up some new ones for me and will even be nickel plated - I am eagerly awaiting them :-)
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Rich, they should go out today. The threads might be a little tight as I forgot about the thickness of the plating (about .001" on dia.) They fit great on a B30 boiler before plating. Let me know how they work. Next time, I'll cut the threads a bit undersize.
Paula
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Hi @Paula - that must be the new package that has shown up on my USPS Informed Delivery from Indiana!
I expect that will work out to my benefit for the tank side for sure as I believe the tank threads are a little wobbled out. For the fitting side I think those threads are intact I wouldn't be surprised there is some slop there too. I do have the 1/4-40 ME (Model Engineer) die coming to me, perhaps if I do have problems I could use it to chase the pipe threads??
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I got the pipe nipple from @Paula today and have the Empire 90 back together. Thank you so much Paula! As expected I did have to chase the threads with my 1/4-40 ME Die, no big deal.
https://youtu.be/uI_5FxPoXTM
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So good to hear the US Postal Service did not fail us! (Just a bit slow...)
That's quite an impressive runner, and looks great too! Glad I was able to help you out. :D
Paula