Post by: RichSteamTx on May 06, 2023, 05:46:01 pm
Well,
the results are in! At hottest point it runs 450 degrees (at the top of the rear cylinder cover). Draws 374 watts at 110v. 350 degrees at center of cylinder.
crazydoug
Hi @crazydoug my B-38 runs pretty much with in this heat range. Though I don't know if the heater inside is original or not. I know it has been apart as the shaft oiling port is misaligned (about 3 O'clock). It bothers me to no end but I don't really want to take it apart.
The heater messures out to be 36 ohms.
Post by: Junkologist on September 19, 2022, 07:49:28 pm
@Junkologist / Mike - thank you for your post and replies in the others - if it wasn't for this thread I'd would likely never have tried to make my own heater.
Many thanks!
Glad to help! The way I look at it, these heaters are relatively simple and cheap to make, so if one fails, it’s no big loss. Just learn why it failed and modify accordingly when making the next one.
Post by: RichSteamTx on September 15, 2022, 09:31:06 pm
Many thanks!
Post by: RichSteamTx on August 24, 2022, 11:52:28 am
I am thinking I am needing this to wrap about the iron heater brace for a B31 heater retro fit. I am sure it is smart to have the mica in between anything doing with the heater to the tank (my assumption incase there is an electrical short of any kind). I have read that @Junkologist says .15mm and at https://www.mcmaster.com/mica-sheets/ the closest I see is 0.004" or 0.008" (I am pretty sure .15mm should be just about .0060" inches).
So I am thinking McMaster's Flexible Electrical-Insulating Mica 0.008" 85825K42?
Post by: Junkologist on August 15, 2022, 07:18:06 pm
Well, this is post interesting. I been trying to get my Empire B35 running again but it is missing all of the heater bits (My B35 Post (https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/general-discussion/empire-metal-ware-crop-b35-any-hope/)). I just bought a B30 off eBay that should give me just about all the missing bits I need for my B35. I have little hopes of the heater working on the B30 (sold as-is / untested). Even if the heater is operational on the B30, it is likely to fall apart when I start taking it apart.
@Junkologist (https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=201) you helped me a lot with my brother's Jensen and I hope you could help me with my B35 heater - I assume I'll need it. I just bought the B30 and with a little luck I'll have it by the end of the week (or early next).
I suppose there are many ways to skin this cat but as close to original would be my preference.
TV here’s a good chance the heater is fine on the B30 you have coming to you. When removing it, just be real careful and take your time, especially when removing the leads from the prongs where the cord plugs in.
Post by: komet163b on August 15, 2022, 10:37:00 am
Could you please tell us all the gauge or thickness of the nichrome
wire you used and its source. Same for the mica.
Thanks,
Wayne
Post by: RichSteamTx on August 15, 2022, 08:31:00 am
@Junkologist (https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=201) you helped me a lot with my brother's Jensen and I hope you could help me with my B35 heater - I assume I'll need it. I just bought the B30 and with a little luck I'll have it by the end of the week (or early next).
I suppose there are many ways to skin this cat but as close to original would be my preference.
Post by: Belugawhaleman on April 09, 2020, 01:05:10 am
Post by: crazydoug on April 07, 2020, 05:10:55 pm
the results are in! At hottest point it runs 450 degrees (at the top of the rear cylinder cover). Draws 374 watts at 110v. 350 degrees at center of cylinder.
crazydoug
Post by: Junkologist on April 07, 2020, 03:06:45 pm
Post by: Sprintcars11 on April 07, 2020, 07:17:07 am
Post by: crazydoug on April 07, 2020, 06:49:35 am
you've aroused my curiosity now, and since I have extra time at home due to the virus, I will run my B38 tonight and check the temp.
crazydoug
Post by: Junkologist on April 06, 2020, 08:33:12 pm
Mike,
sorry i didn't see this till joe PM,d me this afternoon. My heater measures 40 ohms on my Simpson 260. By my calculations, it should draw 360w at 120v. Hope that helps.
My temp. meter is at work. If you need a temp. reading, let me know and I will get it monday. The line voltage when this was built was 110-105 volts, so keep that in mind if the engine runs at a higher wattage than on the nameplate. I found years ago that 20v difference caused a lot of problems with my early 30's radios- I actually rewound a lot of power transformers for radios that I wanted to play for extended time periods. I'm not sure how much difference it makes on steam engines, but a variac set at 105v is a good idea for anything more than a short run. You probably already know all of this though!
doug
I’ve since done all the calculations for my new heater and it falls right into spec for the engine. I do run all my old stuff on a variac set to the specified voltage. Even when run at 110 volts, it gets very hot, like 500+ degrees. At 80 volts it stays right around 350 degrees or so. I thought about making another heater to accommodate the higher voltage we have today, but it get just as hot because the wattage would be the same. Maybe this is just how these engines are, but I have nothing to compare to.
The mica insulation sheet I used is .15 mm thick. The element is wrapped around two strips.
Post by: Junkologist on April 06, 2020, 08:23:12 pm
Really great rescue, Mike...!!!
Gil
Thanks, Gil!
Post by: crazydoug on April 04, 2020, 03:32:58 pm
I'm curious what thickness mica you used.What kind of material is the ribbon raped around??It’s wrapped around flexible mica insulation sheets. It’s much easier to work with instead of actual mica, like the original heaters. This stuff seems to be like a paper made from ground up mica.
Thanks Boss
crazydoug
Post by: RedRyder on April 04, 2020, 03:17:56 pm
Gil
Post by: crazydoug on April 04, 2020, 02:52:37 pm
sorry i didn't see this till joe PM,d me this afternoon. My heater measures 40 ohms on my Simpson 260. By my calculations, it should draw 360w at 120v. Hope that helps.
My temp. meter is at work. If you need a temp. reading, let me know and I will get it monday. The line voltage when this was built was 110-105 volts, so keep that in mind if the engine runs at a higher wattage than on the nameplate. I found years ago that 20v difference caused a lot of problems with my early 30's radios- I actually rewound a lot of power transformers for radios that I wanted to play for extended time periods. I'm not sure how much difference it makes on steam engines, but a variac set at 105v is a good idea for anything more than a short run. You probably already know all of this though!
doug
Post by: Junkologist on March 31, 2020, 08:51:58 pm
What kind of material is the ribbon raped around??It’s wrapped around flexible mica insulation sheets. It’s much easier to work with instead of actual mica, like the original heaters. This stuff seems to be like a paper made from ground up mica.
Thanks Boss
Interesting and good to know that the heaters can still be made 8) It might also help that the new mica hasn't had 80-90 years of abuse :D
I’m no longer afraid to buy an Empire product with a bad heater. I’ve even designed in my head a replacement heater for the Jensen blanket heaters, should the day come that they are no longer available.
Post by: Nick on March 30, 2020, 09:53:37 pm
What kind of material is the ribbon raped around??It’s wrapped around flexible mica insulation sheets. It’s much easier to work with instead of actual mica, like the original heaters. This stuff seems to be like a paper made from ground up mica.
Thanks Boss
Interesting and good to know that the heaters can still be made 8) It might also help that the new mica hasn't had 80-90 years of abuse :D
Post by: Junkologist on March 30, 2020, 06:26:12 pm
What kind of material is the ribbon raped around??It’s wrapped around flexible mica insulation sheets. It’s much easier to work with instead of actual mica, like the original heaters. This stuff seems to be like a paper made from ground up mica.
Thanks Boss
Post by: Junkologist on March 30, 2020, 06:22:19 pm
I did some actual calculations and my new heater falls right in line with the specs on the tag. I’ve got quite a few hours of run time racked up now at various voltages, so it seems to be durable. I’ve had it apart a few times and there is no change in the appearance of the materials, so everything seems to be holding up well.
My only concern is how hot the engine gets after some time running on full voltage. I can get nearly a 600 degree reading with an IR temp gun. That’s awful dang hot in my opinion. If any of you guys that have one of these could check the temp of yours after running for about 10 minutes or so, that would be great. I’m thinking it’s just the nature of the beast and it is what it is.
Post by: Maxwell on March 30, 2020, 12:01:34 pm
Post by: St Paul Steam on March 29, 2020, 08:25:45 pm
Post by: Empire man 202 on March 29, 2020, 08:01:22 pm
Thanks Boss
Post by: Woe is me on March 22, 2020, 07:47:10 am
It's also nice to stand back and learn.
Post by: Junkologist on March 20, 2020, 01:01:10 pm
I can measure the resistance of the element if needed.
crazydoug
Doug, could you measure the resistance of your heater? Thanks!
Post by: Junkologist on March 20, 2020, 12:56:03 pm
Is that nichrome ribbon wrapped around some sort of mica board?
Yes it is.
Post by: Hero on March 20, 2020, 11:06:42 am
Post by: Nick on March 20, 2020, 10:11:14 am
Post by: Junkologist on March 20, 2020, 10:02:48 am
https://youtu.be/6k_M7ZqDJ3Q
Post by: Junkologist on March 20, 2020, 09:53:30 am
Joe sent me the engine to work on. When it arrived, it was very dirty and oily. First thing I did was look to see what the heater was like. The heater basically disintegrated when I removed it. It may have been dosed with high voltage since most of the nichrome element was essentially vaporized and the mica was burned through. I never saw one so destroyed before.
Next step was to clean the engine and replace some gaskets to get it airtight. Once it was airtight, it would easily run with a little torch heat in the hot end.
Next, I started ordering materials for the new heater. The last of my materials arrived yesterday so I went building the new heater. I counted 38 wraps of nichrome ribbon on the old heater, so that’s how I made the new one. On 110 volts the hot end will get to around 400 degrees, which I feel is too hot. At 80 volts, it stays right around 300 degrees and runs nice. I plan to make another heater with added wraps of nichrome ribbon. The added resistance should help.
If anyone has one of these that is all original and could tell me how hot theirs runs on the hot end, that would be great.
Post by: txlabman on March 09, 2020, 10:51:12 am
Did you get it running?
Post by: crazydoug on February 10, 2020, 07:23:55 am
crazydoug
Post by: Sprintcars11 on February 09, 2020, 08:07:32 pm
Post by: Junkologist on February 09, 2020, 07:55:22 pm
I sent you a private message with my email address.
Post by: Sprintcars11 on February 09, 2020, 07:29:56 pm
Post by: Junkologist on February 09, 2020, 07:25:19 pm
Joe, did you happen to purchase your B-38 from Shelby today?
Post by: Sprintcars11 on February 09, 2020, 07:12:56 pm
Post by: Nick on February 09, 2020, 07:10:26 pm
Post by: Sprintcars11 on February 09, 2020, 06:51:10 pm
I just purchased an Empire hot air engine. The heater is bad and needs to be replaced. I am looking for someone that has experience to help me with this repair. I believe that Lyle Peterson A.K.A. mrpete222 and TUBALCAIN would be able to help but I can not seem to find his contact info. There is not a way to contact him through his youtube chanel. Can anyone help steer me in the right direction?
Thank You!
Joe