Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines
The Regular Stuff: Chat, Buy, Sell, Off Topic, etc. => General Discussion - Model & Toy Steam Engines – Stirling Cycle – Flame Lickers – Small Antique Originals => Topic started by: RichSteamTx on August 20, 2022, 01:21:53 pm
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My two B90's are rated at 350 watts
as is a B31 and all are in the low
30's ohm range. The B30, rated at
300 watts measured maybe 40.
And since Elektro's are a predecessor to the
Empire line...
I had a friend with very good diagnostic
meters and we tested the band heater I used
in an Elektro project. It was rated 380 watts
but guess what....maybe 150 watts. What a rip.
I'm sure it would run better at a true 380.
I have two other Elektro's and the tags read
115 volts and 2.5 amps, or about 280 watts.
We checked the resistance and it measured 28 ohms.
that is at least 450 watts and it heats like it.
The calculations/estimats are based on DC formulas,
but close enough for me.
Wayne
All my other Bs are mid-ish 30s Ohms. There was one Empire I saw the underneath stamping as 450w - don't recall which one that was but it was on eBay that had a photo of the bottom. I think this #90 is close to what it was when it came out of the factory. I been playing with it all night and it hardly breaks the stack steal (I get just a slight bubbling out of it).
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Thought I'd do another video, this is showing her building steam and making enough power to keep the wheel moving. Even with the original heater before it blew I had to give the wheel a good flick to get things going good. Now, I just need to give her a nudge and off she goes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QSvG5s3e8w&ab
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My two B90's are rated at 350 watts
as is a B31 and all are in the low
30's ohm range. The B30, rated at
300 watts measured maybe 40.
And since Elektro's are a predecessor to the
Empire line...
I had a friend with very good diagnostic
meters and we tested the band heater I used
in an Elektro project. It was rated 380 watts
but guess what....maybe 150 watts. What a rip.
I'm sure it would run better at a true 380.
I have two other Elektro's and the tags read
115 volts and 2.5 amps, or about 280 watts.
We checked the resistance and it measured 28 ohms.
that is at least 450 watts and it heats like it.
The calculations/estimats are based on DC formulas,
but close enough for me.
Wayne
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Thank you @Paula , I have ran her 3 more times since that video and the heater seems to be holding. This last time I ran her about five 5 minutes after filling her tank, then I removed the power. She kept running for another 50 seconds before coming to a full stop - fabulous!
So it seems all my previous "leak" repairs are holding - even the sight glass using Teflon tape, not one drop is weeping out.
I hope the details I provided helps others, with a little care and the right materials you can make a heater for these little engines. I'd image the bigger B Series are easier, since you don't have to make two strips! I don't remember what what the ohms were on the old heater before it blew, I just recall checking I got a reading. With a little Ohms Law, she is running at 456 watts / 3.68 amps with a supplied 124v A/C. I think that is a bit high for the wattage, as I seen a similar Empires (not the copper tank) listed a 350 watts under them. The bottom of this engine has no stamping / branding marks to give me a guide. Though perhaps it was originally calculated at 110v - if so that would be 359 watts / 3.26 amps.
Yes, many thanks to all that have helped - some in other threads they started or replied too that have haven't visited this thread. This is a superb forum and the admins really give you some rope to whine about stuff LOL
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Bravo, Rich! Got that little sucker steaming along nicely! 8)
This is what's so great about these forums... people putting their collective minds toward solving problems. Thanks, Rich, Mike, Wayne, and all the rest who take the time to try their luck, and document their results.
Paula
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First off, making your own heater blanket isn't for the faint of heart or anyone scared of electricity. I have been around electricity all my life and at one time I thought I'd be in some kind of an electronics repair guy. Some how I ended up going into Broadcast TV Engineering and while I did do a lot of component, microwave, UHF transmitter repair in my 1st 5 years and been in software for the 25+ years.
Basically, treat electricity like a whore - you can ha a lot of fun but if you get a STD you are screwed and might die a horrible death! AKA - Don't blow yourselves up!
Items used:
- McMaster-Carr (85825K42) Flexible Electrical-Insulating Mica, 23" x 39", 0.008" Thick
- McMaster-Carr (69405K54) Noninsulated High-Temperature Ring Terminals, 900°F Maximum Temperature, for 16-14 Gauge and Number 10 Screw
- McMaster-Carr (2573K41) Electrical-Insulating Tube Sleeving, Expandable, 0.080" ID (7,000V -65° to 390° F)
- Jacobs Online (RW132035100) Nichrome Ribbon Wire, 1/32 X .0035 X 100ft
- Latex Gloves - the kind you get 50 in a box from drug store.
The #90 heater is split into parts and straddles the one mounting screw. It goes Tank, Heater Blanket, Iron Mount Plate. Then one nut to squish Iron Mount Plate to the tank (with the heater blanket in between).
There was one side of the heater that didn't blow - it measured 16.7 ohms (no power tab and disconnected from the other side). The first time I put it together I didn't make the Electrical-Insulating Mica wide enough, as I could see it glow. While it looked really cool to see, I turned it off to create new Electrical-Insulating Mica sheets!
Each of the strips I made, I used some mica from the original strip that did blow - I divided them up and balanced them on my hand made ones. So two larger sheets on top and bottom. Then two strips I made, with original mica for each side. I then wrapped Nichrome Ribbon Wire, 26 times, around these strips. Each measured 16.4 ohms (no power tabs / not connected. I'd say that is pretty close!
Next I used about 1/4 of a McMaster-Carr Ring Terminal, where I drilled two tiny holes to pull the Nichrome Ribbon Wire from the two strips. Original bridge was unusable. Next I was able to use the original power tabs to attach to each of the newly made strips. Once together and tied to the heater box power leads, my DMV read 33.7 ohms.
Photos attached are:
- Mock up - making up the basic setup of mica strips. Note: I did end making the larger ones wider and a just a tad longer.
- Comparing old and new Nichrome Ribbon Wire - they are darn near equal.
- Heat Pattern - when I saw I needed wider mica, this let me see the heat patter. The mica gets really hot and when I first turn her on I did get some smoke but it dissipated pretty quickly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYGUHiPzPY0
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Thanks for not knocking my overthinking. I get plenty
of that from my 26 year-old.
So, now I see the hole in the middle. Empire separated
it into two sides. Hmmmm.
On the other hand, your 90 runs well. I like it.
Wayne
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Under the #90 is much like the B30 - just smaller and a center screw with an iron plate smashing the heater to the tank. Which having that center makes it fun, not. So from my photo you see there are two smaller strips of mica wrapped with the Nichrome. So those heater strips straddle the center screw.
Since I didn't do a lot of thinking, I went straight to heater cartridges and I modified the iron plate on the power lead side. This might have really screwed me over trying to go back to a mica heater.... but live and learn. This #90 is all just me learning anyways but hindsight I'd have done things differently. So I wouldn't knock your overthinking at all! ;-)
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Rich...fore-warned, fore-armed....
If I know what it looks like underneath a 90's
boiler I will be prepared for replacing a heater
should it burn out. I usually do a lot of thinking
on a problem before actually working the solution.
Sometimes I overthink it.
Wayne
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Thanks!
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Yes sir, McMaster - #85825K42 Flexible Electrical-Insulating Mica, 23" x 39", 0.008" Thick
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Rich, where did you get your mica sheet? Is that the .008" stuff from McMaster?
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Okay, these two post on the wire is important from @Paula and @Junkologist - so my Amazon source isn't going to cut it.
So I'll return Amazon wire and ordered the below instead....
Jacobs-online.biz #RW132035100: Nichrome Ribbon Wire 5.15 ohms/ft, .0035" thick, and 1/32" wide
Re: Another Elektro Resurrected (https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/restorations/another-elektro-resurrected/msg53115/#msg53115)
Re: Another Elektro Resurrected (https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/restorations/another-elektro-resurrected/msg53119/#msg53119)
Did some figuring on this...
I have an old heater from a B30. The heating wire itself is good, but the aluminum terminals have rotted off. The electrical info, from the nameplate reads:
110 volts, 375 watts.
If I = P/V, then the current = 375/110 = 3.41A
If R = V/I, then the resistance = 32.3 ohms (The ACTUAL resistance measures 28.5 ohms, for whatever that's worth)
The number of turns is approx. 34, at 2.5"/turn, which gives a heater ribbon length of 85"
85" = 7.08 ft., 32.3 ohms would require a wire resistance of approx. 4.6 ohms/ft.
I measure the wire ribbon size at .004 thick X .031" wide.
This source has wire available in 5.15 ohms/ft, .0035" thick, and 1/32" wide, which would work:
https://jacobs-online.biz/nichrome_ribbon_wire.htm
It's the first size listed, with various lengths available.
Paula
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@komet163b I am not sure what you are tying to tell me about "Fore-warned, is fore-armed.".
So I have gone out on a limb on trying to source some Nichrome off Amazon. The wire on the #90 heater is really small/narrow - I really need to get a good ruler. But it can't be more than a few millimeters while. Though I might have screwed myself as I cut the tails off the iron plate so the heater cartridges I bought would fit better where the wire comes out.
Amazon: xcell 10M 33Ft 0.2x2mm Nichrome Flat Heater Wire for Heating Elements. Someone asked the vendor the resistance, they reported 2.25 Ohms/meter = 0.69 Ohms/ft
mcmaster.com #85825K42: Flexible Electrical-Insulating Mica, 23" x 39", 0.008" Thick
I already had the Mica, so I have started the laying out the bits. I am just not so sure if I need to add more sheets. Maybe one or two more?
[attachimg=1]
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At 60 ohms it is running maybe 250 watts.
My 90's run about 30 ohms and are rated 350 watts.
If you open a 90 please take pictures. Fore-warned
is fore-armed.
Wayne
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She is running again, though not going to win any speed races or run an accessory. I think two 150's or 175's would make her run much better, I believe the original blanket was 350w. These two read about ~60ohms.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEbxxANiTi0
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Oh, Paula.....you steamers with real machining tools. I'm 'Jelly' as
my son would say. I went to a tour of a distillery once in the Brooklyn
Navy Yard and noticed a small lathe (3"?) on a shelf. I asked what it
was used for and they had no idea. I left my phone number if they were
interested in selling it but never heard back. Oh well. At least I
have my good old Sears drill press.
Good Luck,
Wayne
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It is an odd little duck and when I looked at it in the eBay sell photo and saw why they are always missing. While they are very cool looking it was like they had a planning session: "How can we make a Whistle that will easily be broken" LOL!
Heck, I am pretty sure these things weren't lost - they were all broken off!
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I need sooo many whistle toppers, it's driving me crazy, I have even sent out some begging PMs to various forum members. To bad Steward has been so ill, I heard at one point he was a good source of help with the Empires. I really hope he pulls through and fully recovers.
Those darn whistle toppers! They break so easily, and they're not easy to make. The O.D. of the whistle valve is an odd size, so if you're machining a topper, it has to be a good press fit on the valve. Alternatively, you could make it a slip fit and use LocTite, but then you need to be careful not to block off the little flat that allows air to enter the topper. I had to carefully bore out the inside of the topper I made so it would press onto the valve. The originals look like they were drawn from .010" brass, so the I.D. would expand to fit the tolerance of the valve spigot. But the notch cut in the base is an engraved invitation to snap the flimsy thing off.
You're right, we need somebody to repro this tricky part.
Paula
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I've made heaters of 200 watts, 2X200 watts, and 250 watts (on its
way to Texas). The first two in B43's and the last is on its way
to a B30. I also used a 250 watt 'crankcase' heater in my last
restore, a Weeden 44, even though I had an original heater. Of
course, they all work but the 2X200 watter is the most powerful.
This video is of the B43 with 2X200 carts.
Wayne
Thanks for the video, that's a good runner! I'm basically using the same approach with my B31. I've heard of folks having blanket heaters made up for the B31, but I wanted to try it with cartridge heaters, as I'm more familiar with them. Plus, I can machine the blocks which are necessary to transfer the heat to the boiler. I'll be posting a thread soon on how this worked out. Sounds like you've had quite a bit of experience along these lines.
Paula
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Ya, I am / was fighting a previous repair job on the sight fittings and the top front steam fitting too I think. At least this one I found in a box of engines my brother gave me. @komet163b is gifting me a 250w cartridge for my B30 that has a dodgy heater, I am going to try it in this #90 first I think. Debating of trying it alone or pairing it with one of the smaller wattage cartridges.
The thing is, she did steam well before her original heater gave up. If it wasn't for the copper tank I'd given up on her long ago. But keeping the copper somewhat pretty has been a big challenge. I am getting really tired of cleaning it up and polishing it LOL
You mention getting a B31 for its whistle top ... I just did that on a buy on eBay for a B30 that still has its original whistle topper. I hoping its heater is okay and it will also supply parts too. While all the Empires I have now are operational (other than missing toppers), I am trying to surprise my brother with a B30 & a B31. So to say I given myself a challenge is an understatement (and a ding to my wallet)!
I need sooo many whistle toppers, it's driving me crazy, I have even sent out some begging PMs to various forum members. To bad Steward has been so ill, I heard at one point he was a good source of help with the Empires. I really hope he pulls through and fully recovers.
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I've made heaters of 200 watts, 2X200 watts, and 250 watts (on its
way to Texas). The first two in B43's and the last is on its way
to a B30. I also used a 250 watt 'crankcase' heater in my last
restore, a Weeden 44, even though I had an original heater. Of
course, they all work but the 2X200 watter is the most powerful.
This video is of the B43 with 2X200 carts.
https://youtu.be/f8ErxJMvTKw
Well, the first three are made in this way (the 2X200 has two holes)...
[attach=1]
This is a diagram of the one I sent to Texas. If it is not fast
enough, we'll have to add another cartridge. No problemo.
Wayne
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Hi Richard,
Sorry to hear of your trials and tribulations. Sometimes these toys are just too far gone to restore, at least within our own capabilities. I try to buy models which look like they have not been "tampered" with too much, and have been taken care of. I'll take my challenges in manageable doses, thank you. It's less easy on the pocketbook, of course. I think I bought my B31 mainly because it had an intact whistle, and looked pretty good, overall. (I didn't even think that it might not have a heater!) These are the challenges we give ourselves...
Best of luck,
Paula
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The Jenson heater blanket was a no-go, too long - so I got some 120w heater cartridges but she isn't making enough steam with the two installed. The tank & sight glass fittings have been giving me fits too. Seems when I had to re-solder the lower fitting back on, I compromised the front of the tank's seam. That took like 3~4 tries to get the front seam sealed and not having the bottom sight glass fitting fall out on me. Before my last try, when the bottom sight glass fitting came off, I did throw the darn thing in the waste basket. I was so pissed at myself. After a smoke break I decided to try it one more time... best I can tell no water/steam coming out around the front of the tank.
So the 120w heater cartridges. There is almost enough steam made to get her to go, its right on the edge I think. I used some flex metal stripping that I had to wrap around the two cartridges but I am thinking it isn't working enough to spread out the heat (I did think to myself that it looked dodgy). @komet163b suggest baling wire in another thread, so I am going to get some from Lowes. Some of that wire that is for hanging very heavy items (like large mirrors), perhaps I can get a good wrap and it will form a nice fit under the tank (and on the iron plate).
If the baling wire doesn't work I am pretty sure I will kick it over my back yard's fence and say a number of curse words.
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Bullseye on #2. I'm almost tapped-out of typing.
Almost.
Wayne
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Not sure if that is "Thanks", that annoys me or "Thanks", that's great/nice you did that - I hope it is not the former LOL
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Thanks for quoting me. I've also used the twisted teflon tape
to make piston rings (long story) for an Elektro engine.
Keep at it,
Wayne
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I am sure you guys are tired of my updates & whinging about my problems/needs but it seems like the little #90 didn't liked to be polished - the heater blanket opened up. Hard to believe it even worked, it more or less was in bits when I took the tank off. I even think someone worked on it before because there is a solder blob in the middle of it. I suppose now I can polish all around the tank ha!
So now for a solution for a heater for it - when I worked on my brother's Jenson I ended up with an extra heater blanket. He is sending that extra one (which is brand new) to me to see if I can get it to fit and not electrocute me.
In other news, I think I am going to try to fix the sight glass seals, though I am trying to hunt a proper O-ring. There is another #90 thread where a suggestion was made but no follow up if they worked. I found these on granger, O-Ring: 5 mm Nominal Inside Dia., 7 mm Nominal Outside Dia., 7 mm Actual Outside Dia., Black, 25 PK (https://www.grainger.com/product/GRAINGER-APPROVED-O-Ring-5-mm-Nominal-Inside-1RHN2?opr=ILOF)
Hi Jeff,
I like to use o-rings also, rather than tubing (unless the OD is too large for the nut ID, of course.)
Have you considered a metric o-ring? A 5mm ID x 7mm OD x 1mm wide might work. You would need around 9/32" dia. clearance inside the compression nut. I have a bunch of them, and could send you a few, if you think it's worth a try.
Paula
and this interesting idea:
Have you considered Teflon tape twisted into a thin string and then wrapped
around the glass tubing (as much as seems needed)? It works the same way
as a slice of silicone tubing. I can testify to that!
Wayne
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Here is the No. 90 with a little polishing. I can now see the front sight glass mounts went through some repair in its life time. Aside from the repair job butchery, the tank is really pretty when polished!
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Ugh, so around the whistle top/steam line I developed a leak, so I gave it a little wrench and the fitting on the tank came undone. FML LOL
My sweating skills aren't the best but I got the steam line/whistle fitting back on the tank (not pretty at all) and as I feared I now have a wee leak on the seam for front cover. I don't want to try if fix it, since I know I'll just make that cover leak more. I think the top glass fitting leaks more to be honest (another thing I don't want to try and fix). I don't think either of these leaks are near as much you get from the actual whistle lever.
To bad there isn't an Empire repair shop to fix my mess up.
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So, anyone have whistle tops for these Empires - I have a feeling someone makes them. The one I got with my parts B30 is to big in circumference - the whistle that came on the B30 is some "replacement" part, so the top won't fit properly (way to loose / wobbly).
I have a feeling I need 3, one for the B35, one for this 90 and I more or less have decided to get the B30 running (but I need a lot more parts for it).
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Thanks @komet163b! Here's the 90 running the Empire 50 Water Pump. As I spoke about before the pump doesn't move water all the well and I can figure out the problem at all. But at least the 90 moves the water pump - the Empire B35 can't move it at all!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYwIyuCZp7Y
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Good for you! I like the Empire 90 and now have two runners.
One to keep as is and one to...customize.
According to the 'Empire' bible by Donald Stilson, the #90
was made from 1933 to 1941.
Wayne
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So my brother gave me a box of Weeden Engines but one was actually an Empire No 90. I was looking at this box of parts for komet163b in his wanted posting about Empire/Weeden (https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/wanted/empire-throttle-parts/) parts (I think there are some nice parts that I have). I actually forgot that Nick told me this was an Empire. (https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/index.php?action=profile;u=74)
Anyways, I decided to check out the terminals on my DVM and it ohm'ed out okay. Though at this point I am thinking the piston is broken because it just seesaws but after seeing video "Empire Model No 90 Under Steam" by Retro Steam Tech (Allen I believe) I learned other wise. So I filled her up with water and she made steam. But she wouldn't power the wheel...hmmm
I took the piston apart from the base (which was a lot of fun) and cleaned/polished/oil things up. This didn't help. Then after a lot of scratching my head, I noticed from Allen's web page for the Empire Number 90 (http://www.alspcs.com/Empire90.html) that my whistle lever was oriented 180 degrees out. So I look it a part and back. I think someone else had it apart and didn't put washer(s) back on. After I put on two washers I was able to get a good seal and the orientation correct! Now she is working - crazy! I had no idea in a box I had more or less a working Empire No 90!
Seward tells me this is an Engine made between 30s~40s and again in the 60s. But he says mine is an earlier model.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP3qLC6M9s4