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Sometime in the past years, when buying old steam engines, I received the model circular saws presented with the following pictures as "by-catch".
One is the saw model Doll no. 752 with nickel-plated saw table. The model is listed for the first time in the Doll catalog of 1929.
The second saw is model no. 249 from Fleischmann with a painted saw table. This model, with the yellow lettering on a sticker with rounded corners was produced starting in 1966.
Both models are almost identical in construction. They differ, apart from the different coating of the table, in that the sheet metal on the Fleischmann model is thinner and the drive wheel is plastic.
Doll's pressing tools continued to be used in production after the takeover by Fleischmann and after the name Doll & Co. was no longer used after 1949.
Therefore, I think it is fair to speak of twins for the two saws.
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Thanks for watching the post. I hope you enjoyed it and it did not bore you. -
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Perhaps not exactly twins, but definitely siblings.
Both very nice examples Jürgen
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From earlier posts, it is my understanding that DOLL was owned
by Jews who had no 'Aryan' certificate to continue business. So,
the owners sold it to the Fleischmanns, who, in spite of being
Jewish, did have such a certificate. Post-war, I read that
Fleischmanns offered to return what DOLL tooling survived the war
but the former DOLL owners took a financial settlement. At least
that is the story I read. No surprise that some Fleischmann steam
products appear to have a DOLL background.
Wayne -
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I somehow doubt that the owners of Fleischmann during Hitler´s reign were Jewish, could be wrong, but until proven so i doubt it.
As far as i know, no Jewish businesses were kept under Jewish ownership, after the "Aryanization" decree of November 12th. 1938. -
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Hello Wayne, hello Jan,
I don't know if the history of Doll & Co. and its relationship to Fleischmann has ever been discussed in this forum. In my (superficial) search, I have found nothing on this subject. Therefore, before I respond to your posts, I would first like to give a brief description of the history of Doll, as it is listed at Historytoy.com.
Company history and description of Doll & Co. in Germany
On 19.12.1898 the company "Doll & Co." was founded by the plumber Peter Doll and the merchant Isaak Sondheim. In the beginning they produced mainly simple steam engines and operating models. They tried to stand out from the competition by high quality and hardly any other company produced so many operating models.
In 1909 Peter Doll left the company and Sondheim became the sole owner.
On 01.01.1911 Max Bein, a nephew of Sondheim, joined the company as another shareholder. Due to the work of Max Bein the company got a boost in innovation.
On 22.03.1923 the OHG was converted into a joint-stock company.
In 1927, the chief engineer Reichel was taken over by the troubled Bing company. This company started to produce steam locomotives in 0 gauge, later electric ones were also produced. Only one type of ghost locomotive was developed.
In 1930, there were about 150 employees.
In 1933, the company was renamed "Fränkische Metallspiewaren AG" to avoid expropriation by the National Socialists.
In 1938, the company was taken over by the Fleischmann company, which continued to use the Doll name.
In 1949, the Doll railroad became the Fleischmann DC railroad in 0 gauge, which was replaced by H0 gauge in 1958.
The steam engines were sold under the Doll name until 1949, and under Fleischmann from 1950, and are no longer in the catalog from 1969.
I have read a few times during my research that the Bein and Fleischmann families were friends. But like Jan, I have my doubts. A proof for it, as well as for the fact that the Fleischmann family is of Jewish origin, I have not found until today. There is an interview with one of the two daughters of Max Bein, which rather indicates that this friendship probably did not exist.
https://vimeo.com/72549751
(Please click the button "Auf VIMEO ansehen")
Here is a short summary of the interview:
"My father always believed that this would pass, that it couldn't last long," Elizabeth recalls in the interview about the fatal illusion that patriotic Jews in particular harbored during the Nazi dictatorship. Elizabeth Miller, born Elsbeth Rosa Bein in Nuremberg on June 13, 1923, came from such a patriotic family: Her father had served in World War I, and she herself grew up with a picture of Hindenburg above her bed. But suddenly the Beins were no longer considered Germans. Under the pressure of "Aryanization," the father's toy factory, Doll & Co., had to be sold at a ridiculous price, the Bein's villa had to be abandoned, silver and jewelry had to be given away. Under the shock of the Reich Pogrom Night, the Bein family decided to emigrate. In May 1939, Elsbeth and her younger sister Ingeborg first arrived in England on a Kindertransport, where they found shelter with friends in London. When the parents, who had enrolled in the long waiting list for emigration to the USA, finally received visas and ship papers, war broke out. On September 2, 1939, they illegally fled to relatives in Holland and from there emigrated to the United States. In October 1940, the family was reunited in Boston. Elizabeth Miller now lives near San Francisco.
Unfortunately, the interview is conducted in German and I have not found a translation into English.
In the interview, Mrs. Miller clearly states that her father had to sell the Doll & Co. company for a ridiculous price. On the occasion of a visit to Nuremberg after the war, the old Mr. Fleischmann showed her around the company. One would hardly call a good friend of the family "old Mr. Fleischmann".
After the war, legends were often created in Germany. Who likes to be accused of having enriched himself from the misery and misfortune of others? But that has not been proven in this case either. At least, I have not been able to find out anything about it so far.
The Fleischmann company has undoubtedly profited greatly from the takeover of Doll and Co. And not only in the field of toy steam engine production, but much more in the field of model trains. In this branch of production, the development at Doll had just really taken off before the expropriation.
After the war, Fleischmann offered to transfer the ownership of Doll & Co. back to the Bein family. The Bein family declined this offer and instead had a corresponding number of shares paid out. Understandable, after all that had been done to them in Germany.
If you have further, especially provable information about the history of Doll & Co. and the Bein family, you will find someone here who will gratefully accept this information. -
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Alert...I own, and really like, a Fleischmann 125-4 engine in great condition.
That said...
For Jews and 'other' citizens described by the NAZI's as undesirables,
those were terrible times and getting worse. I found my info on a steam
engine info site, so it is second-hand. I kind of want to believe that the
'give back' story could be true. I saw on TV a 'give back' story, with both
participants speaking, of a cache of gems that was saved by one (a friend) for
the owners (a Jewish jewelry firm) at the war's outbreak, and returned at the end.
So, is it possible the Fleischmanns give-back offer was true? If not...?
I've added a link below to my source of info.
http://johno.myiglou.com/dollsteam.html
My college major (and personal interest) was history, mostly 20th century. I
graduated in '75, so the studies ended with the 50's...anything later was, in
comparison, current events and not part of the 'history' curriculum.
Wayne
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Hi Wayne,
I also own some Fleischmann steam engines, all waiting to be restored. Beautiful machines that I would not want to miss.
With the history of Doll & Co. unfortunately much is in the dark. The witnesses who could be interviewed are almost all dead and those who may still be alive and may have worked at Doll or Fleischmann at the time are unknown.
What is certain, is the information I gave in my post about the existence of Doll & Co. and the chronological sequence. Likewise the information of Elisabeth Miller, daughter of Max Bein.
Unfortunately, I did not have a translation of the interview with Mrs. Miller into English. In the interview she made very true, unfortunately very true statements about the time between 1933 and approx. 1950.
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And with every day, with the passing of 'those who were there', it becomes
more difficult to learn the whole, true story of events. We are left with
some stories unfinished and have to let old questions stay unanswered.
That said, time to stop kvetching over the past and get on with living.
We need more of that in this country. Time to stop cursing the darkness
and light candle.
Be like two fried eggs...Keep your sunnyside up,
Wayne -
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You are right Wayne. Always dwelling on the past doesn't get us anywhere. But we should learn our lessons from the past.
I will always try to keep my sunny side up.
I will continue my efforts to learn more about Doll & Co. and their immediate environment. By chance, my first old steam engine was a Doll 310/2, which aroused my interest in other Doll machines and the manufacturer. -
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In the meantime I found out that a granddaughter of Max Bein, Irene Reti, lives in Santa Cruz, California, and works at the university there.
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Great thread to read. Also fantastic twins!
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