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Author Topic: Completely new to model Steam Engines  (Read 1318 times)

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Completely new to model Steam Engines
« on: March 13, 2021, 09:51:23 pm »
Hi folks,

I am brand new to the forum and more-or-less completely brand new to model steam engines. Long story short, I inherited a few steam engines that were are built, including a Stuart 10V which I plan on using. As I needed a boiler, I picked up a Stuart 504. I have lots of questions as it's all new to me but I'd like to learn.

Boiler (Stuart 504):
1. Is there a good set of instructions or video as to the operation / inspection of the 504 boiler?
2. My boiler has a Spirits / Alcohol burner. What type of spirits / alcohol should I use?
3. Do I need a hand pump / tank for filling extra water to the tank during operation? (I've seen setups with that)
4. What is the drain valve under the site glass for. If its stuck, what is the best way to un-stick it?
5. What is the attachement on the lower right for (below where the pressure gauge attaches)?
6. How do you set the pressure safety valve? (From what I can tell.. 60 psi is where you want it)
7. What type of tubing should I use to connect to my engine? Thread size? Is Stuart the best place to get it from?
8. What is the best thing to do after use? (cleaning / preserving for next use)

Steam engine (Stuart 10V)
1. What oils should I use? I've heard of two separate kinds I need (steam oil, etc). Where is a good place to get it?
2. What is a good oiling device to get to apply oil to the engine?
3. Is there a good set of instructions or video as to the operation / inspection of the 10v engine?
4. What is the best thing to do after use (cleaning / preserving for next use)
5. How do I use the external oiler I seem to have? (see pic)

I eventually plan to use the two in a generator setup.. but more questions on that later - I first need to learn more on what I have so far!

Thanks!


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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2021, 04:35:23 am »
Nice looking Stuart 10 there, with inline displacement oiler and all.
The 504 is a much wanted boiler, of high quality and good steam productivity, you won´t regret that purchase.

Regarding the inline oiler, you simply unscrew the lid, and fill the oiler with steam oil up to the connecting pipe, before you run it. 
No need for it, if you run the engine on air, as it doesn´t function without water/condensate.
As you run your engine, steam passing by through the steamline, will bring along some condensate, which slowly will fill the oiler. 
Water being heavier than oil, will settle at the bottom of the oiler, and thereby lift the oil out of there, into the steamline....dunno if that made sense?

The valve at the bottom of your sightglas, is a draincock to empty the boiler. If opened while there´s still a bit of pressure left, it´ll blow out most water that way.
I assume the opposite attachment is a blanked off connector, to which you could mount a feedwaterpump, and fill your boiler under pressure.


AS far as oilers go, you should get a larger one, to handle the fat steamoil used for the areas in contact with steam (like the displacement oiler on the Stuart 10), and a dedicated presicion/needle oiler for thin automotive oil like a higher grade Mobil1, to lubricate all moving parts and bearings not in contact with steam.
But far as specific oils and alcohol goes, i think you´re better adviced from others, as i don´t know the best/cheapest approach in the US.
Cheers
Jan
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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2021, 09:46:49 am »
Welcome Aboard, James...!!!   From Connecticut.

For steam cylinder oil you can go to PM Research, JensenSteam Engines, or Ministeam.
There are others but these are all good suppliers to our hobby.


For Jensen Steam Engines, best to call them and order.
http://jensensteamengines.com/accessories.htm

PM Research
https://www.pmmodelengines.com/shop/steam/steam-accessories/cylinder-oil/

Ministeam
https://www.ministeam.com/cgi-bin/sh000001.pl?WD=oil&PN=Shell%2dValvata%2dJ%2dOil%2d460%2d%2d%2dSteam%2dCylinder%2dOil%2dShell_460%2ehtml#SID=412

You can't beat Jensen for friendly help.
PM Research has the best price.

Green Velvet is also like by some and I don't know enough about the suppliers.

They will all work if as mentioned by Jan (above) you use steam cylinder oil on or on what the steam will touch. It is blended to mix with steam and water.


Fuel:

For the alcohol burners, hardware stores and paint stores sell denatured alcohol.

For indoor use, while more costly, Everclear or Graves grain alcohol are 95% (190 proof) and they burn so clean they will not stink up your house or make your eyes water.

Have fun!

Gil

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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2021, 06:55:46 pm »
Thank you guys for the info & links! I'll certainly pick up the various oils and oilers. Certainly more research to be done but it will be fun to see these work and to put them to use.

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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2021, 12:51:02 am »
Hi guys,
I'm checking back in. I had a few other projects going on to finish up before I could shift my focus back on my steam project.

I have ordered some steam oil from PM research and one of their oiling kits.

My next question is - what do I need to connect the 504 boiler to the 10V? I see Stuart sells a steam and exhaust pipe set:

https://www.stuartmodels.com/products/fittings--tools---accessories/lubricators-and-pipework/steam---exhaust-pipe-sets

Is that what I'd need to start off? I'd also need to get a small pipe bender, but I do see some around for sale online.

I have also seen some people having a small hand pump and water tank to feed the boiler water. Do I need to get one? If not, how much run time do I get on the boiler (how would you re-fill the water without a hand pump / water tank?

Lastly - As a complete newcomer who has never fired a steam boiler, is there a good source of information about firing a boiler up for the first time - the do's and don'ts of operating a boiler.. as well as the do's and don't of operating a model steam engine?

Ok, well not quite lastly - is there a good source of pulley / belts out there? (I have no access to a lathe to machine anything)

Thanks everyone!

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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2021, 03:09:25 am »
To make it easy and keep costs down, you could consider using copper tube for your connection.
Brake tubing is available in 3/16", relatively thickwalled, and therefore no tube bender is needed, as you can bend it (within reason) to fit your setup by hand, without flattening or creasing.
Any auto-shop would have a small length of that cheap as chips.
You will need fittings soldered in at each end, to mount it on the boiler and engine, but getting hold of those would need a precise knowledge of which threads you have in each end.

I don´t have a 504 boiler, but it´s a relatively large boiler, and if fired to just chuff away gently, i think you´d start being full, before the boiler is out of water.
A feedwater pump is a neat item, but rarely needed for occasional runs. Doesn´t take that long to kill the heat, let the steam out and refill the boiler for another run.

When it comes to firing it is relatively straight forward, as long as you use a fitting meths/alcohol or gasburner.
Start by inspecting the safety valve, to ensure it isn´t stuck. Use a small funnel to fill the boiler approx. 3/4 full with demineralised water, and light the fire under it.
If you notice any leaks during the process, just kill the fire and fix the leak by tightening connections slightly or replacing gaskets, whichever does the trick.
If the safety valve start lifting during your run it´s all good, but you clearly have to much heat for you current steam needs, and might want to attend that, either by cranking up the engine, or reducing the heat.
(Do keep an eye on the pressure gauge, if the pressure keeps climbing with the safety valve blowing, the burner is oversized for your boiler and unsafe to use under this vessel.)

One thing of strictest importance though...
NEVER EVER leave the boiler unattended when there´s a lit burner under it, for any reason whatsoever!!!
If the phone calls, or you want that quickly made sandwich, kill the fire before you remove your attention!!!
Cheers
Jan
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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2021, 01:16:56 pm »
A word of caution:

When you are using an alcohol burner be aware that alcohol vapors can communicate flame, so fire doesn't have to touch the liquid, it can ignite the vapor that comes from evaporating alcohol. Always be sure the flame is extinguished before refilling the burner, outside in daylight it is often difficult to see the burning flame.
Frank C.
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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2021, 09:41:10 pm »
Thank you for the replies.

I'll have to figure out what fittings I have and tubing would probably be available at the local autoparts store. Otherwise, I see some places online that carry the fittings.. I just need to figure out what I have on the engine and boiler. I've also got an inquiry to Stuart... but hopefully I can get something together for fittings in the next day or so. I have a friend giving me some scrap plywood so that I can eventually mount these.

Thank you for the firing instructions. On the site glass - if the site glass is 1/2 full does that mean the water is at half? 3/4 on the site glass would be 3/4 water filled? As the boiler is running, when is a good time to pull the heat away to stop / refill (how empty on the water?).

Thanks also on the cautionary note regarding the alcohol burners - yep, alchohol vapors are indeed very flammable and can be pretty darn near invisible! Will definitely need to make sure they are properly extinguished before refilling / shutting off.

You had mentioned blowing out some of the water to empty the boiler when it still has some pressure.. is there a good number on the gauge to watch for when to open the valve?

Also, what are some good post-run things to do... (cleaning & lubricating)

Sorry for all the questions! I just want to ensure I get things as close to right on the first try!

Oh, I've attached a pic of the burner I have and also of the gauge on my stuart boiler.

I think that's all I have for now. I want to focus on getting everything running first

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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2021, 12:20:12 am »
I'll tackle the water level question.

Yes, if water in the sight glass is at the halfway point, the boiler should be nearly half full, though it is important to remember that these narrow sight glasses do not always perform with complete reliability, so some judgement is best used in reading the water level shown. Sometimes bubbles form in the fittings just below the sight glass and interfere with the proper level of the water in the glass itself, so be aware of this possible false reading scenario. Some folks put a hair fine brass or copper wire in the sight glass to help "pop" such bubbles, but they do not always work as intended either. Still, most often the water level in the sight glass is at or very near the proper water level in the boiler itself.

However, because the sight glass is not the full height of the boiler, though it does generally represent the actual water level that is in the boiler, thus:

When the water level in the sight glass is at the top of the glass, the boiler is really only 2/3 to 3/4 full, which is actually as full as you are ever going to want it, as there does need to be a fair amount of room for the steam to form within the top of the boiler. A boiler that is too full will just force a bunch of water into your steam lines, and thus into your engine, which is a very bad thing and can actually cause damage. So you never want your boiler too full of water, and the visual top of the sight gauge is probably the limit of what you'd ever want in there!

Likewise, the bottom of the sight glass is perhaps at the 1/4 to 1/3 level in the boiler, and you'd be wise to never run the boiler any lower than that, as you can do serious damage to your boiler and yourself by letting the water level get too low. For best results and safest operation, all steaming should be done using only the middle 1/3 to 1/2 of the boiler's actual capacity.

After you've pulled the flame out from under the boiler, and let it cool down for a while, I'd wait until the pressure is below 5 psi as near as you can tell from your pressure gauge. Be sure to have some kind of container that you can catch boiling hot water in conveniently, as that is what you will be dealing with when you open that drain valve and steam and water come shooting and spitting out, and I'd be prepared to tip the boiler slightly forward so as to get the most complete drainage possible, which may well require a hot pad or good insulated glove.

As you start out, operate on the safe side of all parameters, until you get a true feel for the equipment, its capabilities and operating idiosyncrasies. Take nothing for granted, and try to learn something from every operating session, therein lies much of the fun in this pursuit!!!

Hope any of that helps!

.... And welcome to the Forum!!!
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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2021, 07:55:12 am »
For every cup of reverse osmosis or distilled water, you want a tablespoon of hard water (tap water).

In bright sunlight alcohol burning can't be seen. Always fire the boiler in shade. Better for you as well.

Take a kitchen rag and have it soaking wet with H2O as a fire blanket.

The sight glass is your working water range. Never go above or below that range.

The best boilers have try cocks. You can use that to verify H2O levels.

Have leather gloves. Wear safety glasses. Keep face away from path of safety valve. Watch pressure gauge. Never fire too vigorously (it's ok if the safety valve goes off a bit but if a lot withdraw fire). Make sure fire stays within firebox.

Most model boilers fire best with 75% alcohol / 25% water. Never ever fire with 100% alcohol.


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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2021, 10:39:05 am »
Getting a gas burner set up is a bit of a cash outlay, but I think once you try one you will not want to go back to any other type burner.

Lots of good info here, no affiliation:
https://www.forest-classics.co.uk/ceramic-burners
Frank C.
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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2021, 12:59:00 am »
I'm getting closer to firing up for the first time.

The steam oil and oiling kit arrived. I've got to pick up a few additional things. I have the piping necessary to connect the boiler and engine. I've got all the instructions written out based on the tips / steps / advice you have provided here. I think I'm going to try to fire up the boiler this weekend. I'm going to get the boiler and engine mounted on some scrap plywood this weekend.

A few more questions.. once fired up and producing steam.. with an engine such as the 10v and a boiler such as the 504.. any guesses as to the approximate runtime I might get?

What is the best method to extinguish the alchohol burner? Is it as simple as blowing it out like a candle once I remove it from under the boiler?

Once I have completed running the engine, what should I do to clean / prepare the engine and boiler for storage?

Thanks!

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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2021, 01:13:22 am »
Drain the boiler after use.
A lot of us leave the safety valve off to encourage drying out.
It's most effective to use an air compressor to blow it out

Spin engine over to work out water  Wipe down engine. Depending on engine, it may be necessary to wipe a little oil on things via an oily rag.

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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2021, 09:09:30 pm »
So I tried firing just the 504 boiler for the first time using the advice I gathered. (Keep in mind I have never fired a steam boiler before)

When filling the boiler, I noticed that there was no movement in the site glass until the water reached the level of the upper site glass connection where it filled from the top down. I don't think this is normal. Should the site glass have filled from the bottom up?

I lit the burner and started warming the boiler up.

I noticed the site glass leaks at a slow drip around where the glass itself meets the brass (both at bottom and top)

I also noticed despite being steam I don't think the pressure gauge is working at all. It never moved off 0. It also had a small leak where it meets the boiler and also under the gauge

Should there be any washers on the top steam valve or the pressure relief valve on the top of the boiler? I had a little  coming from the valve.

And to be sure.. the top steam valve goes towards the "front" (where the gauge is) and the pressure relief valve goes towards the back (chimney side)?

I definitely did see some steam but with all the above issues I shut it down.

I guess at this point I'll empty out the boiler and see about tackling all the above

Edit: got the boiler inside after cooling off... went to turn the top steam valve and the plastic part you turn was dry-rotted and twisted off.

The boiler definitely needs some tlc

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Re: Completely new to model Steam Engines
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2021, 03:49:43 am »
Congratulations on your first firing there James :)

You definitely have a clogged connction at the bottom of your sightglass, if it doesn´t show anything until it starts to drip in there from the top.
It is quite common to have some leaks from dried out gasketmaterial, when firing an older boiler that has been stored for years.
Some of them might be fixed by tightening the fittings ever so slightly, just keep in mind that threads in this type of non-ferrous metals is fragile, so you don´t overtighten and strip the threads.
As you disassemble the leaking areas, just share some pics of the area/parts, and you should get good advice in here, on the best material and approach for reassembly.
There should be a gasket/washer under both safety and steamvalve, and it is entirely up to your personal preference how they´re placed on top of the boiler, as long as the threads fit them.
Doesn´t make any difference steam or safety wise.
Cheers
Jan
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