Author Topic: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs! (Read 1792 times)

Paula · « **Reply #15 on:** September 08, 2022, 01:28:28 pm »

Quote from: RichSteamTx on September 08, 2022, 12:49:24 pm

I need sooo many whistle toppers, it's driving me crazy, I have even sent out some begging PMs to various forum members. To bad Steward has been so ill, I heard at one point he was a good source of help with the Empires. I really hope he pulls through and fully recovers.

Those darn whistle toppers! They break so easily, and they're not easy to make. The O.D. of the whistle valve is an odd size, so if you're machining a topper, it has to be a good press fit on the valve. Alternatively, you could make it a slip fit and use LocTite, but then you need to be careful not to block off the little flat that allows air to enter the topper. I had to carefully bore out the inside of the topper I made so it would press onto the valve. The originals look like they were drawn from .010" brass, so the I.D. would expand to fit the tolerance of the valve spigot. But the notch cut in the base is an engraved invitation to snap the flimsy thing off.

You're right, we need somebody to repro this tricky part.

Paula

RichSteamTx · « **Reply #16 on:** September 08, 2022, 01:39:04 pm »

It is an odd little duck and when I looked at it in the eBay sell photo and saw why they are always missing. While they are very cool looking it was like they had a planning session: "How can we make a Whistle that will easily be broken" LOL!

Heck, I am pretty sure these things weren't lost - they were all broken off!

komet163b · « **Reply #17 on:** September 08, 2022, 02:50:01 pm »

Oh, Paula.....you steamers with real machining tools. I'm 'Jelly' as
my son would say. I went to a tour of a distillery once in the Brooklyn
Navy Yard and noticed a small lathe (3"?) on a shelf. I asked what it
was used for and they had no idea. I left my phone number if they were
interested in selling it but never heard back. Oh well. At least I
have my good old Sears drill press.

Good Luck,
Wayne

RichSteamTx · « **Reply #18 on:** September 12, 2022, 12:25:35 pm »

She is running again, though not going to win any speed races or run an accessory. I think two 150's or 175's would make her run much better, I believe the original blanket was 350w. These two read about ~60ohms.

komet163b · « **Reply #19 on:** September 12, 2022, 10:05:40 pm »

At 60 ohms it is running maybe 250 watts.

My 90's run about 30 ohms and are rated 350 watts.

If you open a 90 please take pictures. Fore-warned
is fore-armed.

Wayne

RichSteamTx · « **Reply #20 on:** September 13, 2022, 08:23:28 am »

@komet163b I am not sure what you are tying to tell me about "Fore-warned, is fore-armed.".

So I have gone out on a limb on trying to source some Nichrome off Amazon. The wire on the #90 heater is really small/narrow - I really need to get a good ruler. But it can't be more than a few millimeters while. Though I might have screwed myself as I cut the tails off the iron plate so the heater cartridges I bought would fit better where the wire comes out.

Amazon: xcell 10M 33Ft 0.2x2mm Nichrome Flat Heater Wire for Heating Elements. Someone asked the vendor the resistance, they reported 2.25 Ohms/meter = 0.69 Ohms/ft
mcmaster.com #85825K42: Flexible Electrical-Insulating Mica, 23" x 39", 0.008" Thick

I already had the Mica, so I have started the laying out the bits. I am just not so sure if I need to add more sheets. Maybe one or two more?

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

RichSteamTx · « **Reply #21 on:** September 13, 2022, 09:06:43 am »

Okay, these two post on the wire is important from @Paula and @Junkologist - so my Amazon source isn't going to cut it.

So I'll return Amazon wire and ordered the below instead....

Jacobs-online.biz #RW132035100: Nichrome Ribbon Wire 5.15 ohms/ft, .0035" thick, and 1/32" wide

Re: Another Elektro Resurrected

Re: Another Elektro Resurrected

Quote from: Paula on September 12, 2022, 08:42:41 pm

Did some figuring on this...

I have an old heater from a B30. The heating wire itself is good, but the aluminum terminals have rotted off. The electrical info, from the nameplate reads:

110 volts, 375 watts.

If I = P/V, then the current = 375/110 = 3.41A

If R = V/I, then the resistance = 32.3 ohms (The ACTUAL resistance measures 28.5 ohms, for whatever that's worth)

The number of turns is approx. 34, at 2.5"/turn, which gives a heater ribbon length of 85"

85" = 7.08 ft., 32.3 ohms would require a wire resistance of approx. 4.6 ohms/ft.

I measure the wire ribbon size at .004 thick X .031" wide.

This source has wire available in 5.15 ohms/ft, .0035" thick, and 1/32" wide, which would work:

https://jacobs-online.biz/nichrome_ribbon_wire.htm

It's the first size listed, with various lengths available.

Paula

Paula · « **Reply #22 on:** September 13, 2022, 09:50:57 am »

Rich, where did you get your mica sheet? Is that the .008" stuff from McMaster?

RichSteamTx · « **Reply #23 on:** September 13, 2022, 09:53:51 am »

Yes sir, McMaster - #85825K42 Flexible Electrical-Insulating Mica, 23" x 39", 0.008" Thick

Paula · « **Reply #24 on:** September 13, 2022, 09:54:27 am »

Thanks!

komet163b · « **Reply #25 on:** September 13, 2022, 01:42:20 pm »

Rich...fore-warned, fore-armed....

If I know what it looks like underneath a 90's
boiler I will be prepared for replacing a heater
should it burn out. I usually do a lot of thinking
on a problem before actually working the solution.
Sometimes I overthink it.

Wayne

RichSteamTx · « **Reply #26 on:** September 13, 2022, 01:56:08 pm »

Under the #90 is much like the B30 - just smaller and a center screw with an iron plate smashing the heater to the tank. Which having that center makes it fun, not. So from my photo you see there are two smaller strips of mica wrapped with the Nichrome. So those heater strips straddle the center screw.

Since I didn't do a lot of thinking, I went straight to heater cartridges and I modified the iron plate on the power lead side. This might have really screwed me over trying to go back to a mica heater.... but live and learn. This #90 is all just me learning anyways but hindsight I'd have done things differently. So I wouldn't knock your overthinking at all! ;-)

komet163b · « **Reply #27 on:** September 13, 2022, 02:03:37 pm »

Thanks for not knocking my overthinking. I get plenty
of that from my 26 year-old.

So, now I see the hole in the middle. Empire separated
it into two sides. Hmmmm.

On the other hand, your 90 runs well. I like it.

Wayne

RichSteamTx · « **Reply #28 on:** September 15, 2022, 05:05:19 pm »

First off, making your own heater blanket isn't for the faint of heart or anyone scared of electricity. I have been around electricity all my life and at one time I thought I'd be in some kind of an electronics repair guy. Some how I ended up going into Broadcast TV Engineering and while I did do a lot of component, microwave, UHF transmitter repair in my 1st 5 years and been in software for the 25+ years.

Basically, treat electricity like a whore - you can ha a lot of fun but if you get a STD you are screwed and might die a horrible death! AKA - Don't blow yourselves up!

Items used:

McMaster-Carr (85825K42) Flexible Electrical-Insulating Mica, 23" x 39", 0.008" Thick
McMaster-Carr (69405K54) Noninsulated High-Temperature Ring Terminals, 900°F Maximum Temperature, for 16-14 Gauge and Number 10 Screw
McMaster-Carr (2573K41) Electrical-Insulating Tube Sleeving, Expandable, 0.080" ID (7,000V -65° to 390° F)
Jacobs Online (RW132035100) Nichrome Ribbon Wire, 1/32 X .0035 X 100ft
Latex Gloves - the kind you get 50 in a box from drug store.

The #90 heater is split into parts and straddles the one mounting screw. It goes Tank, Heater Blanket, Iron Mount Plate. Then one nut to squish Iron Mount Plate to the tank (with the heater blanket in between).

There was one side of the heater that didn't blow - it measured 16.7 ohms (no power tab and disconnected from the other side). The first time I put it together I didn't make the Electrical-Insulating Mica wide enough, as I could see it glow. While it looked really cool to see, I turned it off to create new Electrical-Insulating Mica sheets!

Each of the strips I made, I used some mica from the original strip that did blow - I divided them up and balanced them on my hand made ones. So two larger sheets on top and bottom. Then two strips I made, with original mica for each side. I then wrapped Nichrome Ribbon Wire, 26 times, around these strips. Each measured 16.4 ohms (no power tabs / not connected. I'd say that is pretty close!

Next I used about 1/4 of a McMaster-Carr Ring Terminal, where I drilled two tiny holes to pull the Nichrome Ribbon Wire from the two strips. Original bridge was unusable. Next I was able to use the original power tabs to attach to each of the newly made strips. Once together and tied to the heater box power leads, my DMV read 33.7 ohms.

Photos attached are:

Mock up - making up the basic setup of mica strips. Note: I did end making the larger ones wider and a just a tad longer.
Comparing old and new Nichrome Ribbon Wire - they are darn near equal.
Heat Pattern - when I saw I needed wider mica, this let me see the heat patter. The mica gets really hot and when I first turn her on I did get some smoke but it dissipated pretty quickly.

Paula · « **Reply #29 on:** September 15, 2022, 06:18:11 pm »

Bravo, Rich! Got that little sucker steaming along nicely!

This is what's so great about these forums... people putting their collective minds toward solving problems. Thanks, Rich, Mike, Wayne, and all the rest who take the time to try their luck, and document their results.

Paula

Office of Steam Forum for Model & Toy Steam Gas & Hot Air Engines

News:

Author Topic: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs! (Read 1792 times)

Paula

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

RichSteamTx

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

komet163b

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

RichSteamTx

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

komet163b

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

RichSteamTx

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

RichSteamTx

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

Paula

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

RichSteamTx

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

Paula

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

komet163b

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

RichSteamTx

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

komet163b

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

RichSteamTx

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!

Paula

Re: Surprise Boxed Empire No 90 - Makes Steam & Runs!