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Author Topic: Bargain 1/2 hp G. Sipp .... the good, the bad & the ugly  (Read 961 times)

Stoker

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Bargain 1/2 hp G. Sipp .... the good, the bad & the ugly
« on: February 12, 2021, 06:28:13 pm »
Hummmm .... where to actually start this thread?

Perhaps a link to the original thread of my epic trip to go pick it up, as seen here:

https://www.officeofsteamforum.com/general-discussion/12-hp-g-sipp-in-the-bag/

So, as the tale just linked makes clear, I risked life & limb, and possibly some sanity as well, to go get this big brute, and even though it was an impressive bargain, there are reasons that might help explain just why that was the case.

I have now taken it down far enough to have a pretty good idea as to what issues are at play here, and although none are wholly irredeemable, there are several that suggest that this will never be a first class engine, unless totally rebuilt to a standard that would be difficult to achieve given the material at hand. I believe somewhere I made reference to this engine as being a case of buying "a pig in a poke", and as it turns out, that was a rather prescient observation.

Yes, the seller showed a video of this engine running on air. But, it ran poorly, jerkily and I sensed it was requiring very high air pressure to accomplish that, thus I really didn't like what I saw then, so was some suspicious right from the git go, and those suspicions have now proven correct.

Still, I think having it in my collection now is good, and I do believe I'll be able to make it run reasonably well, even if not superlative. Yet it will never be a prime example of the type or anything like it, no matter what I do to give it the help it definitely needs.

But, at the end of the day, it was one hell of a bargain generally, and it does look very well beside its little brother the 1/4 hp Sipp, so I'll do what I can for it, and settle for whatever I actually end up with here.

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I'll add photos & descriptions of what I have found at issue with this engine in following posts.
"Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth, Truth is not beauty, Beauty is not love, Love is not music: Music is THE BEST...   
Wisdom is the domain of the Wis (which is extinct). Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short cloth neck ornament currently in resurgence..."
F. Zappa ... by way of Mary, the girl from the bus.

St Paul Steam

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I'll be right here waiting for your updates Daniel, thanks for including us in your journey.
Bruce, St. Paul Indiana, USA
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Stoker

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Well okay Bruce ... let's get started down this road, shall we!?!?

As mentioned above, in the video provided by the seller, the engine looked to run really rough, and it seemed that a lot of pressure (subjective judgement that proved correct) was being used to get it to run at all. When I picked it up, the seller told me that they were using 60-80 psi from his compressor in the video, and it sure wasn't running smooth and fast like it should have. Besides that, it was immediately obvious that the cylinder lagging cover was not on the engine, and that is perhaps the most visually conspicuous and iconic part of a Sipp engine. Furthermore there was a bolt sticking up out of the top of the cylinder that simply had to go all the way into the inside of the cylinder. This is not a normal feature of a Sipp, and was likely used to put a little oil on the piston from time to time when running on air, though it wouldn't do much of anything to oil the D-valve.

Both of those features, or lack thereof, are seen here:

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

So this much I knew before I committed to buy it, and drive down to pick it up! But was still hopeful that these were perhaps the only real issues.

Other issues of note that became obvious upon seeing it in person, and getting it home for proper study, showed that it never had that iconic cylinder lagging cover mounted, as the photo also shows the witness marks for locating the cover mounting screws that are cast into the top of the cylinder, have never been drilled and tapped. Furthermore, you can just see from the above photo that the inside walls that project above the ends of the cylinder are not square, but rather tapers toward the top of the photo, which would make mounting the cover difficult at best, and a proper mounting has the cover edges set square and parallel.

Fact is I do believe that this was not a factory finished engine, but was rather sold as a set of partially machined castings, which was an option back in the day.
"Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth, Truth is not beauty, Beauty is not love, Love is not music: Music is THE BEST...   
Wisdom is the domain of the Wis (which is extinct). Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short cloth neck ornament currently in resurgence..."
F. Zappa ... by way of Mary, the girl from the bus.

St Paul Steam

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Wow , 60-80 psi , that should have flung itself to the floor as big as that brute is and the weight shifting displacement it can achieve, my knowledge of Sipp engines is that most were kits that were often included or offered as an option in new metal lathe sales as on easy 1st build, I imagine a 2 sided brass cover could be fabricated for it.
Bruce, St. Paul Indiana, USA
"Originality thrives in seclusion free of outside influences beating upon us to cripple the creative mind."
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RedRyder

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Hi Daniel, a big CONGRATS on a fine acquisition for your collection.

Perhaps a bit of timing will help. 60 to 80 psi ought to be downright scary on one of these without a work load and without a governor.

Jim

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Following vicariously along with you Daniel, I'm going to thoroughly enjoy this thread and watch this biggun' being restored.
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Jim

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PatJ

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That is a very nice looking engine.
I don't recall ever seeing that style/brand before.

.
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Stoker

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Hi Daniel, a big CONGRATS on a fine acquisition for your collection.

Perhaps a bit of timing will help. 60 to 80 psi ought to be downright scary on one of these without a work load and without a governor.

Well the video the seller had of it running did show it "jumping around" pretty badly, but I think that was mostly due to the wobbly table he had it set up on. Even though he said his compressor was giving him 60-80 psi, I doubt that the engine was actually seeing that much, as it would also depend on the volume of air, and not just the pressure of that air, that was making it into the engine. With that said, I will add that much of what I have found so far would definitely preclude this engine running on any "reasonable" amount of air or steam. Large volume and substantial pressure is the only way this engine is likely to turn over in it's current condition, as you will soon see with further postings.

Certainly my little airbrush compressor at 25 psi would not budge this big brute, even though I believe the pressure should have proven adequate (just), but the volume was lacking. I couldn't even get the D-valve to seat, so all the air I was putting in was just blowing out the exhaust!

Most, if not all of the issues with this engine will be revealed in due course .... so stay tuned!
"Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth, Truth is not beauty, Beauty is not love, Love is not music: Music is THE BEST...   
Wisdom is the domain of the Wis (which is extinct). Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short cloth neck ornament currently in resurgence..."
F. Zappa ... by way of Mary, the girl from the bus.

txlabman

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I am staying tuned Daniel.

St Paul Steam

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I am staying tuned Daniel.
I'm here as well...
Bruce, St. Paul Indiana, USA
"Originality thrives in seclusion free of outside influences beating upon us to cripple the creative mind."
  Nikola Tesla

Stoker

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Next oddity that I noticed on this engine is on the underside of the cylinder casting, at about 7 o'clock if looking from the rear, and right up near the packing gland end. It is a rather large diameter plug with a lot of exposed thread, but must logically be drilled and tapped into the inner cylinder as well.

As seen here:

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

What the purpose for this plug could possibly be, totally escapes me, unless if functions in some way to hold an end plate into that end of the cylinder bore, which would be a very strange setup if you ask me?

Certainly having a valve in this position would make some sense, for draining off condensate from in front of the piston to prevent hydraulic lock situations from occurring at startup, until the cylinder gets warm enough to obviate this issue. But this plug can in no way be used in this manner!

Weird ...

From this point, I started "feeling" the engine to see how it turned through its full revolutions and instantly found that it had a noticeable bind/drag when the crank pin was near 12:00 o'clock, continuing around to almost 9:00, and my first though was ... Oh No, a bent crankshaft.

But the crankshaft on this beast is truly substantial, so I didn't quite buy into that being the issue just yet.

Thus I started to take down the various motion parts on the engine, starting with the valve linkage, and immediately found some rather discouraging evidence of bad/sloppy machining ... as seen here:

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]

Note that the valve linkage toggle arm bearing shaft hole in both the fixed mount bracket and the boss of the toggle arm itself, are noticeably off center in roughly opposite directions, and the hole in the latter has been wallowed out oversize to facilitate a fit. Also note that the hole in the valve cam linkage arm head is also nowhere near centered as any good machinist would have striven to make it!

Interestingly, this is only true of the holes on the mating surfaces of the toggle arm and mount bracket, while the axle bolt head and nut, or opposite ends of those same bores (outside exposures) are both reasonably well centered.

This all leads me to believe that this engine was bought as a set of castings, probably pre-machined for the most critical work, and then finished up by an amateur likely using hand tools rather than machine tools.

These issues could be remedied with a lot of work, but it is actually a fairly non-critical situation, such that as long as these parts are all free to move through the required range of motion, they should do their job just fine as is. But it does look shabby, so maybe someday I'll get around to over-boring more centrally, and then sleeving those bores to obtain a proper fit.
"Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth, Truth is not beauty, Beauty is not love, Love is not music: Music is THE BEST...   
Wisdom is the domain of the Wis (which is extinct). Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short cloth neck ornament currently in resurgence..."
F. Zappa ... by way of Mary, the girl from the bus.

St Paul Steam

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Thanks for the update Daniel , I've had engines that looked absolutely horrendous but ran beautifully , And engines that were showroom gorgeous and ran very poorly (if at all). I haven't a clue what that plug could be for other than it might be an access port for the connecting rod/piston somehow ?
Bruce, St. Paul Indiana, USA
"Originality thrives in seclusion free of outside influences beating upon us to cripple the creative mind."
  Nikola Tesla

Jim

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Daniel that's so off center....I wonder how it could be THAT off center by accident? Could the builder have meant to drill it like that for some reason  ???  ???

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St Paul Steam

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Daniel that's so off center....I wonder how it could be THAT off center by accident? Could the builder have meant to drill it like that for some reason  ???  ???

(Attachment Link)
Kinda of my thought as well, maybe he was adjusting for other issue's.
Bruce, St. Paul Indiana, USA
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Stoker

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Daniel that's so off center....I wonder how it could be THAT off center by accident? Could the builder have meant to drill it like that for some reason  ???  ???

(Attachment Link)
Kinda of my thought as well, maybe he was adjusting for other issue's.

No real reason why it needed to be like that, as there is plenty of built in adjustment along the valve linkage train. This is just reflective of the level of quality of this build I'm afraid. Actually worse is the hole you see on the left, which is wallowed out about 15-20% bigger that its bearing shaft requires, is also well off center, and in the opposite direction of the mating shaft hole (the middle one) which is well off center to the lower left. Oddly perhaps, both of these latter two holes are very nicely sized and centered at the other end of their respective bores, so that is obviously (maybe) where he started drilling from?!?! The off center condition of these bores at their mating interface results in the two boss faces being offset from each other, which in the long term would wear poorly, but in the short term makes for an offset that looks poorly.
"Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth, Truth is not beauty, Beauty is not love, Love is not music: Music is THE BEST...   
Wisdom is the domain of the Wis (which is extinct). Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short cloth neck ornament currently in resurgence..."
F. Zappa ... by way of Mary, the girl from the bus.